A SWAP TOO FAR..
Tuesday, November 24, 2009 at 08:15AM 
I sincerely hope that reports that Israel and the Palestinians are close to reaching agreement on a prisoner swap that could mean freedom for an Israeli soldier held for more than three years in exchange for the release of nearly a thousand Palestinian terrorists, are wrong.
Gilad Schalit, the young Israeli corporal captured by Hamas in a cross-border raid in June 2006, could be freed as early as Friday, when Palestinians observe Eid al-Adha — a traditional period for amnesties. Among those expected to be released by Israel is Marwan Barghouti, a leading candidate to succeed the Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas, who has threatened to step down over a lack of progress in the peace process. Barghouti, the leader of the Fatah young guard, is serving multiple life sentences for murder and attacks on Israelis during the last intifada.
I fully understand why Israel would like this young man freed but it is wrong to appease the Palestinian terrorism. In particular, to release the mass murderer Barghouti - a LEADING candidate to replace Abbas please note - is morally reprehensible. If Israel does this, it will ensure future kidnaps.
Israel. 
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Reader Comments (78)
David, the majority of those held by the Israeli haven't been charged, tried or convicted. Many of them are Democratically elected officials. Many of them are women and children. Also, considering that Shimon Peres actively stated that he would pardon Barghouti if Peres was elected President of Israel. He was elected and didn't free him.
Also, the Israelis like mass murderers. They have tendancies to make them Generals, and Prime Ministers and Presidents.
Barghouti is a murderer who is committed to the cause of murdering another 6 million Jews. I hope that he is held in perpetuity for his crimes. Israel is the only civilised nation in the middle East so I can understand why it would be willing to release criminals to obtain the release of Gilad Schalit. Is he definitely still alive: the savages usually kill and dismember any Israeli soldiers they capture.
"Also, the Israelis like mass murderers. They have tendancies to make them Generals, and Prime Ministers and Presidents."
Not another one!
Are you in the same club as RS by anny chance?
Sweeping statements like this show a tendency towards bigotry, not a fair assessment of the facts.
Back to the ghettos, boys!
It might not be safer, but at least for some people we'll be doing the right thing!
"Also, considering that Shimon Peres actively stated that he would pardon Barghouti if Peres was elected President of Israel. He was elected and didn't free him."
THAT'S a reasonable statement.
The first statement is simply disgusting.
Perhaps if suspected republican "dissidents" were thrown in jail we wouldn't have had the attempted bombing the other day, not to mention a marked reduction in all of the undocumented republican atrocities, including the ethnic cleansing of the Protestant populations of various areas in the province.
Locking up these so called innocent arabs is more than they deserve. Israel should raze an entire arab village for every single hair that is touched on one of their own citizens/soldiers. The arabs, being cowardly (like the republican gangsters and murderers that prey on the innocent) would quickly retreat back to their sand hovels with their tails firmly between their legs. The Israeli lad is worth more than the entire republican and palestinian populations combined.
Danny, several Israeli murderers and Terrorists have held high positions, including several Presidents, including Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, Ephraim Katzir, Yitzhak Navon, Ireland's own Chaim Herzog and Ezer Weizman. It isn't a sweeping statement when the majority of a country's Presidents have been Terrorists.
The Arabs are well aware that the Israelis put a higher value on their people than the Arabs do on their own adults and children. That helps them extract such one sided and troublesome bargains.
Oh right.
Mr "Yeah But What Is A Terrorist?" suddenly can't look at a Bar Mitzvah without seeing terrorists everywhere.
Funny that.
There is truth though to this. Begin was a terrorist, and he was not the only one on the Jewish side.
Israel will do some kind of deal for the release of this soldier, it is accepted acrosss the political spectrum there, depsite the implications.
Seamus,
"Also, the Israelis like mass murderers"
That's the disgusting part of your statement.
Would you say that right from the start all of Ireland's freedom fighters were
TERRORISTS!
Cos I wouldn't... (but more recently some were/are.)
Were the Welsh who burnt down homes belonging to the terrible English, terrorists?
Or Tamil Tigers?
It depends on which side of the struggle you are.
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."
As I have said before, there are many Israelis (if I dare use that term..) who did not/would not agree with the methods used by the Stern Gang and others.
Because the Jewish majority were already cooperating with each other, and had various committees, they created firstly the HaShomer and then the Haganah, to protect their settlements.
The Stern Gang, Lehi and the Irgun operated outside of the more representative Haganah.
They could more correctly be termed terrorist groups.
Even then, you still have to look at their motivation -in the context of the times.
I am not excusing them, but neither would I totally condemn all (Irish, Singhalese,etc.,"freedom fighters" either.
Let's put it another way.
If you live in a free democratic society, there can be no excuse for resorting to the use of terror to achieve your objectives.
If after arguing and promoting your view that Northern Ireland should become a part of the Republic, the majority don't agree; then a reasonable man would either accept it..
or BLOODY WELL MOVE SOUTH!
A terrorist would not accept that logic..
"That's the disgusting part of your statement."
The truth hurts at times. Israel have had no problem with electing their own mass murderers but have issues when the Palestinians do it.
"Would you say that right from the start all of Ireland's freedom fighters were TERRORISTS! Cos I wouldn't... (but more recently some were/are.)"
How would you identify them? The Provisionals clearly targeted the Security Forces and Loyalists on a more regular occasion that they targeted Civilians so would it be considered a Terrorist group? If it is then why are the IRA 1919-1922 Terrorists as they, at times, killed Civilians as well?
"Because the Jewish majority were already cooperating with each other, and had various committees, they created firstly the HaShomer and then the Haganah, to protect their settlements.
The Stern Gang, Lehi and the Irgun operated outside of the more representative Haganah."
And the Haganah were Terrorists, involved in the massacre innocent people, and held an alliance with Irgun and Lehi. Haganah may have had the support the majority but then so do the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' and Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. Are those two groups Terrorists?
"If you live in a free democratic society, there can be no excuse for resorting to the use of terror to achieve your objectives. "
The argument would then be should a decision that was reached using Terrorism (like the creation of the State of Northern Ireland against the democratic wishes of the people of Ireland) ever be respected and recognised?
Phantom -
I know there were many Jewish terrorists. I'm the one who says so in here and that Israel ought to have hanged them instead of elect them to high office.
But the point is Seamus can't spot a terrorist from Northern Ireland to the Hindu Kush. All he can do is repeatedly ask what a terrorist is whenever the word comes up. He's in favour of shooting men and women in the head if they're suspected of giving information to the British Army, but he can't spot a terrorist.
Yet all of a sudden, as his gaze falls on Israel, his eyes are filled with terrorists. They're all terrorists and mass murderers. You can't move for Jewish terrorists.
How odd.
The Arabs are well aware that the Israelis put a higher value on their people than the Arabs do on their own adults and children
Nice way to dehumanise a people you don't like Phantom. I would say the ethnic cleasning of a people from their land demonstrates quite clearly that zionists do not value the lives of arabs and see them as sub-human.
phantoms statement nicely feeds into such debasement.
Administrative Dentention orders in Isarel are handed out to the palestinians like sweets.
And seamus is quite correct, zionists are a bit hypocritical in decrying terrorism, given the plethora of people who graced the upper echelons of Israeli society. After all, even Ben-Gurion admitted it was the zionists who were the agressors.
Terrorist in the context of this post, Pete. David considers Marwan Barghouti and others to be Terrorists when the Israelis have elected worse to their Presidency.
RS
At least I recognize that there is an Arab nation. While you deny that there is a Jewish one.
You're a version of " Holocaust denier " - a " Jewish people denier "! I don't think that even Arafat took the stance that you do.
Phantom what do you mean 'at least I'?
Its like you think we're supporting opposing teams or something. Arabs speak arabic and come from the middle east do they not? How is an honest appraisal of history a version of holocaust denial?
Of course there are jewish people, but as JEWISH academics themselves point out, they are not a distinct race or ethnicity. Why on earth do you think i would make all this up? Its there in black and white if you care to read it. I have already suggested it to you.
Let me ask you this
Do you honestly believe the zionist narrative is the true account of the history of judaism?
Finally, I have repeatedly asked you for your sources, why can you not give me a few titles and authors?
In many ways what the Jews did in founding Israel is bordering on the miraculous. I would be a huge admirer were it not for the fact that their state was built on the dispossession of another people. That was not, is not, and never can be acceptable.
RS
You are not a worthy opponent.
Dismissed.
One brave young Israeli hero for only 1000 Palestinian terrorists - that's a mismatch, surely he's worth 10,000 at least?
Davieboy
Phantom, worthy?
I would have to be an illiterate buffoon with little or no grasp of history to be worthy of matching you.
Dismissed? Its evident you were dismissed from school rooms many a time, judging by your poor grasp of history.
Seamus et. al.,
You have never heard me once criticise the Palestinians or their aspirations,
(...I draw the line at their ultimate aspiration for Israel ,though.)
Never heard me insult any of the leadership etc. etc.
Yet you guys throw all manner of vitriol at the Israeli people and their leaders!
You have no problems with that at all.
Perhaps you're too busy looking at your reference books for fresh ammunition...
So annyway, what would your solution to this mess be?
How would you guys sort it out?
Some of you must have had some fair old experience or opportunities helping to solve the troubles in Northern Ireland,
bringing justice and peace, and equal opportunity to Catholics who want just to be Catholics in Northern Ireland,
Catholics who want to be back in the fold with ould Mother Ireland,
Protestants who want them all out
Protestants who want to maintain a position of control
Thugs and gangsters using religion as an excuse to rob and intimidate, people who like playing with bombs or blowing kneecaps off....
You know the sort of thing I mean..
WHAT would be your solution for the Middle East, that all the rest of the world's leaders have failed to find?
RS, do you consider the countries surrounding Israel to have peaceful intentions towards Israel and to have the morals and inclination towards decency and trustworthiness which would give Israelis confidence to deal amicably with such countries, these being muslim countries?
Allan,
It's gone bloody quiet on this thread....
Anyway, the intentions of the nations around Israel have nothing to do with this, Allan.
I 'm kinda surprised you even brought that up..
It's an argument from the REAL world,
...and up until recently we've been receiving some more re-education regarding the guilt of them there pseudo-Israelis an' coreligionists
Butchers! Murderers! Terrorists so they are.
(Ssssh now! I think the lads might be applying their minds to a peace plan, using all the experience gained in sorting out the various parties in Northern Ireland....)
Danny and Phantom
Tut Tut, you should both be able to tolerate dissenting opinions on this topic more than you have shown so far on this thread.
Allan are you inferring the countries surrounding Israel are incapable of 'the morals and inclination towards decency and trustworthiness'?
I think if Israel comes to a just arrangement with the Palestinians the surrounding countries will be more amenable. of course just like in Israel all this is dependent on the leadership at any given time. And by just i don't mean the 22% with lots of caveats currently on offer. i would call for a binational state or a a more equitable partition of Palestine so that its original occupants get somewhere closer to 50% of their land.
'But Israel is tiny already' you might scream.
But Israel was somebody elses land. So such a compromise cannot be seen as unfair (well it could still be viewed as unfair to the palestinians). Plus Israel has the bomb, and the zionist myth long propagated and still actually believed by some of David v Goliath is nowadays seen for the lies it so patently is.
So Allan do you think Israel can be trusted to immediatley stop coveting palestinian land, to begin treating its Palestino-Israeli population like equals?
After all, shouldn't that be the case if Israel wants to style itself as democratic and a beacon.....(which unfortunately too many idiots in the west are all too ready to believe)
".... if Israel wants to style itself as democratic and a beacon.." I have some news for you, RS. Israel is a democracy where human rights are valued, and a beacon to which the persecuted in the surrounding countries flee when they can. Gays who would be murdered in the surrounding countries escape to Israel.
The countries surrounding Israel use lies, deceit and terror to bring about the end of Israel, and this is as instructed by their religion and the leaders of that religion. The Jews are regularly described on muslim TV as pigs and apes, also as their religious tracts describe. That is hardly a basis for peaceful co-existence.
Israel was somebody else's land? Israel is the eternal land of the Jews and Jerusalem, the City of King David, is its capital. I hope that's clear.
Allan, you do know that there is virtually no archeological evidence to suggest that King David actually existed? There is evidence to suggest yes that a Jewish people lived in modern day Israel but there is virtually no geneological link between those people and the modern Israelis. Most modern Israelis and most modern Jews are not descended from the Jews of Biblical Palestine.
'I have some news for you, RS'
Goody...can't wait.
Israel is a democracy where human rights are valued, and a beacon to which the persecuted in the surrounding countries flee when they can.
Really? So how come Palestinians living in Israel cannot marry Palestinians living in the WB or Gaza? How come even though they pay taxes Palestinians living in Israel are living in places where very little money of those taxes are spent, they are rundown and have little amenities, oh and there is the little matter of water resources etc. What kind of democracy gives a right to a foreigner living on the other side of the world to come and live there, but restricts the rights of the undesireable indigenous living there?
I see you use your support for Israel to vent your hatred of muslims, nice. Tell me Allan, a simple yes or no will suffice. Do you think Zionism has anything to do with the rise of anti-semitism in the Arab world, yes or no?
Israel is the eternal land of the Jews
Israel is the land of Judaism. World Jewry is not descended from the Levant. I guess history isn't your strong suit Allan.
'I hope that's clear'.
Whats clear is you think books filed under religion are actually history books.
RS
You're wasting your time with Adolf@Aber.
RS trying to intimidate by use of bolding, a convention I've not seen others here use much in threads. It's shouting.
---
For most of the dark age which began 1400 years ago, the Arab world has been a blood soaked cesspool of the sword and periods of second class citizenship for Jews ( and Christians, Zoroastrians, Bahai's and others ) resident there.
The decline of Jewish populations in Arabia began a long time before 1948. In Saudi Arabia the native Jewish population is zero now. ( Which is identical to the native Christian population there )
Guess anti semitism in Arabia was not caused by that evil Golda Meir.
"Danny and Phantom
Tut Tut, you should both be able to tolerate dissenting opinions on this topic more than you have shown so far on this thread."
Colm,
It's nothing to do with not tolerating dissention. We are talking about real peoples, real death and real misery. It's not a gentlemenly intellectual exercise over cigars and whiskey...
I asked a reasonable question.
What is their solution to the problem?
It's all very well banging on about the rights (and mostly wrongs) of the origins of the present State of Israel...
Whether or not the millions of people calling themselves Israelis are real Jews or pseudo Jews..
What would our learned critics actually DO about it?
Arguing the toss about what is a REALITY, falls into the same category as analysing England's role in causing the troubles in Ireland..
Apportioning blame may bring a certain intellectual satisfaction.
It may provide excuses to continually castigate the "guilty ones",
But what I keep hearing is self righteous indignation and condemnation...
Which reminds me so much of attitudes to be commonly found regarding Northern Ireland.
Perhaps Israel provides a vent for a similar mindset...
Lots of heat...but little light.
I repeat,
What solution do they offer?
'RS trying to intimidate by use of bolding, a convention I've not seen others here use much in threads. It's shouting'.
I think its pretty clear Phantom, that the sentences in bold are merely quotes from other people, which i have bolded to distingush from my own text.
And Phantom that period referred to as the dark ages, was anything but in the islamic world. Again this you'd know if you wished to. Many jews preferred living under islamic rule than Christian. If you don't believe me, just say so, tell me im lying, go on.
'Whether or not the millions of people calling themselves Israelis are real Jews or pseudo Jews..'
Danny, you seem intent on missing the point. Judaism is a religion, descendents from the khazars or the Maghreb or anywhere else, can claim to be as jewish as anyone else, precisely because it is a religion.
P.S Phantom, would you prefer if I Italic instead of bold quotes from others?
RS
My personal preference for what little it matters is to use italics when quoting something that is being responded to, or when quoting something for purpose of discussion
And you are quite correct that during various times in history Islamic entities such as the Ottoman Empire were far kinder to the Jews than Christian Europe was.
Fair enough Phantom, I'll try and oblige in future.
RS and Seamus:
It's always the fault of those filthy Jews, eh?
Clifford, where did I mention Jews? Other than in quotes from other posters I don't think I even mentioned the Jews.
Clifford
I don't think that kind of stuff is necessary
Of course I also don't think it's necessary for some to deny the nationhood of the Jewish people, but I guess they're never going to stop.
In yesterdays NY Times, there was a review of a book that alleges to show that the Jews are not a people.
The author is a self-hating Jew who explicity who mixes facts and bullshit so as to create mischief
Professor Sand, a scholar of modern France, not Jewish history, candidly states his aim is to undercut the Jews’ claims to the land of Israel by demonstrating that they do not constitute “a people'
Hey. Whatever.
Seamus:
You're a radical anti-semite and it shows in your drivel.
Clifford where on earth did you get that from?
Merely analysisng history, (not the zionist narrative) is not anti-semitic. And Its really nice to see the usual tripe of 'self-hating' jew being pushed against any Jew who dares to not cow before the mighty zionist narrative.
Basing your history on a work of fiction, as the zionists have done, isn't really firm ground to be calling anybody such sickening and unnecessary names.
What anti-Jewish things have I stated Clifford?
Who is Clifford ? I am always suspicious when unusual names appear simply to attack other commenters and then are usually never heard of again. I often feel they are just 'names' being used by other regulars to make the sort of attacks they wouldn't want to reveal openely.
Gents (I use the term most generously):
On all these threads everything is always the fault of the Jews. At some stage you have to admit that you dislike them, if not to everyone else then at least to yourselves.
>>In yesterdays NY Times, there was a review of a book that alleges to show that the Jews are not a people.
The author is a self-hating Jew <<
WOW! Great minds really do think alike!
I'd like to hear any arguments trying to debunk his central point (if as quoted). I doubt if they'd be any less flimsy then the ones advanced here.
I also liked this bit from the New York Times:
"Palestinian Arab villagers are descended from the original Jewish farmers. Nearly a century ago, early Zionists and Arab nationalists touted the blood relationship as the basis of a potential alliance in their respective struggles for independence."
And the bit about later PM David Ben-Gurion, no less, and later President Yitzhak Ben Zvi claiming this same Jew-Muslim relationship in a book they wrote, and Zionist leader Chaim Weizmann talking about the “racial kinship and ancient bonds existing between the Arabs and the Jewish people.”
Heady stuff indeed.
Ah, that that insight had last. Just imagine where all the bigots without a cause - here, there and everywhere - would go with their hatred.
When someone describes an individual as a self-hating Jew, American, Irishman etc. what they are really saying is simply that the person they are describing holds opposite opinions on the make up and future of their own nation than the individual labelling them.
Colm what they're actually doing is resorting to mud slinging because they cannot debate his or her substantive points with a reasoned critique.
Well. of course.
But there is such a thing.
The kapos in the camps, the blacks who collaborated with the old South Africa, Mr. Quisling himself, who headed a government of Norway in the service of his Nazi masters.
What were these guys? Filled with love for their own people? This term does not fit.
It's fine to criticize one's own people, even harshly. It can be a high form of patriotism.
But this guy, who is no expert on the area, writes a book of fiction and facts with the stated purpose of underming his own nation. If that's not self hating, then please tell me what in the name of God is?
But there is this sense, Phantom, that if you don't agree with everything the State of Israel does, and are Jewish, then you are a self hating Jew. It is too often, by both supporters and opponents of Zionism, a correlation between Judaism and Zionism. They are seperate. You can be a Jew and hate Israel. You can be Israeli and hate Judaism.
You could say that Professor Sand is a self hating Israeli, not a self hating Jew, unless he hates Judaism as well.
Actually you can be a Jew and hate Judaism ( the religion ).
A point that eludes some here.
In the same way that you can be a Catholic and hate Catholicism (like RS) but most people don't consider Catholicism to be a race.
Catholics are not a race. Nor are they a people.
Jews are a people. Anyone born of a Jewish mother is Jewish. That's the way it is, and how it always has been. You can marry into the group or you can convert into the religion ( another way of joining " the tribe " ) but that's how it is.
Ask them! Come to NY and I'll introduce some of you guys to some who fit the exact definition I have said - indifferent or even hostile to any religion, but proud to be Jewish as an ethnicity and culture.
This is easy stuff, guys
Gotta go.