Yep, indeed. I've seen the news reports, and I can only shake my head in bewilderment, and surmise that there's obviously something very, very dysfunctional indeed going on within that whole dysfunctional mess of a so-called "family". We certainly don't know all the facts yet and we possibly aren't going to learn them.
Poor Shannon. Born into a totally messed-up situation, so typical of Britain these days. And so typical of what Labour wants to promote as "equality". Well it isn't - it's a complete sham, a total screw-up of family life.
(I'm not passing blame on any specific individual in this case; i'm just trying to make the broader point that this is the inevitable outcome of the dimunition of the traditional family in our society - messed-up, screwed-up non-"families" with no permanent fathers or mothers for the children. What a joke).
The outcome is not in the least surprising: messed-up individuals pursuing their own messed-up individual agenda. And the children as victims of it all.
(Edit): If only her parents were Doctors with high-standing connections to the British government...! Then any accusation or subtle insinuation against them would, quite naturally, be labelled in the press as LUDICROUS lies made by "internet ghouls". Oh yes. Ha Ha!!

Mike,

Margaret Thatcher is your heroine? I take it you mean the same woman referred to by a correspondent to the Telegraph last year:

Heath (with Thatcher as Ed Sec - she also stopped my morning milk, as I recall) continued the criminal destruction of the grammar schools. The Thatcher governments abolished corporal punishment; replaced O-level/CSE with the GCSE (which had the immediate effect of dragging down A-levels); introduced the national curriculum (the justification of which was supposedly that some schools were teaching rubbish, which seems rather ironic); all of which have been detrimental. Major scrapped the sensible (nothing to do with 'snobbery') distinction between polytechnics and universities; and I think he gave us 'specialist schools' - a status which, on recent evidence, is pretty meaningless.

Pretty damning. But you see where your "very strange society" had its roots? When Thatcher set about demolishing education, she abolished corporal punishment. This had the effect of removing discipline from British schools for ever. It gave the green light to generations who never learnt respect or manners, and who became a law unto themselves in the classroom.

We see where that has brought us: Karen Mathews and her kin. Individuals with no morals, self-respect or sense of right and wrong: the very notions and qualities schools instilled in pre-Thatcher times.

It is the breakdown of morality and the rise of anything goes secularism, twinned with the advance of the Nanny State and the decay of Christianity, that leads to that which Mike observes. Blaming Thatcher is lunacy!

PS Mike, glad to hear the grandchildren are prospering.

David,

So how do you propose disciplining the feral children in our classrooms? Speaking to them nicely, explaining to them the error of their ways? They'd laugh while easing a knife between your ribs.

Face it, when Thatcher spared the rod she spoilt our children for ever.

You are of course right, Dawkins, about Thatcher being singularly to blame - inasmuch as any individual can be held responsible - for the decline in school standards. She was also in the same sense to blame for a lot of the breakdown in traditional society in general that so many of her supporters now complain about here so often (and it's appropriate that Mike names in the header for his piece praising Thatcher a concept that she denied even existed!)

However, you are wrong about sparing the rod spoiling the society. There are many places in Europe that got rid of corporal punishment much earlier - and much more thoroughly - than Britain and that have never known anything like the lack of discipline you complain about in British youth.
The cause lies elsewhere.

Noel,

Perhaps you're right. But I'm open to suggestions. How does one go about teaching those wayward kids self-respect, respect for others, for property, and providing them with boundaries?

I sure as hell don't know a better alternative to the rod. I know it was abused in the bad old days but I always felt there must be a middle ground. And I honestly don't know why non-corporal punishment works elsewhere but not in these islands.

Family breakdown is why kids run wild. As a senior judge remarked at the weekend, practically every problem teenager comes from a broken home.

This case is shedding light on the extent to which the family has eroded as a unit. This woman has had seven children by five different men. Probably an extreme case, but multiple-partners are a fact of life for a growing number of people in 21st century Britain .

It's absolutely sickening what is happening to the family in Britain and elsewhere. There are no standards at all.No decency.

Paternity has now become an entertainment feature - whos the daddy? I watched an American tv show - I was mesmerised by it! One woman on 11 shows tested something like over a dozen men and still no daddy. She'd been at a party and slept with multiple men - so many she'd lost count.

It would turn one's stomach. This isn't only children out of control, there are feral adults out there who either know no better or cannot behave any better.

It's disgusting.

>>And I honestly don't know why non-corporal punishment works elsewhere but not in these islands.<<

All the examples I can think of are in societies more egalitarian than the UK, where there are not such differences in social strata, where there is almost universal prosperity, or at least where prosperity is considered to be attainable by all.

>>This woman has had seven children by five different men. Probably an extreme case, but multiple-partners are a fact of life for a growing number of people in 21st century Britain .<<

Peter, and elsewhwere. In fact, they are probably more common, and more accepted, in, say, Denmark than in the UK. But Denmark has nothing like the problems you seem to think naturally follows this phenomenon. The cause of the problem in Britain must, as I said, be sought elsewhere. It's hard to put a finger on it, but it's definitely in many ways related to a sense of social worthlessness and inferiority, a lack of social cohesion (which doesnt have to be family-based) and - especially in the case of the UK, but also Ireland - a large dose of cultural arrogance.

a large dose of cultural arrogance

Noel, can you expand on this?

Peter, when some young people think they have little to offer, they very often over-identify with their tribe and seek self-aggrandisement by merging with an undisputedly strong entity (flag waving, hatred for foreigners in the case of nationalism, but also inverted snobbery in the case of class).

Whenever I got back to Ireland I'm immediately struck by the way young people identify so strongly, indeed so aggressively, with British and American culture. They think they - as part of this cultural context - are the cleverest, the most successful, the wittiest, the most musical, etc. in the world. In fact, the rest of the world simply doesn't know how to live.
This is, as usual, all the more evident in those who can least appreciate American or British culture and who are themselves totally uncreative.

The fact is that British working-class culture did entertain, delight and influence the world through its music, its brand of humour, fashion, its general self-confidence, over many decades. Chavs often think there are part of this and that they can accordingly do no wrong. I find youth in continental countries extremely modest by comparison.

Look how well-mannered and unpretentious young lads in Scandinavia are, or how gentle and cooperative Italian youth generally is. Divorce is probably just as high in both of these countries.

Noel,

Lots of food for thought there. And speaking of which, doesn't drink play a large part in our societal dysfunction? I can't remember seeing quite so many drunken yobs in Italy or Spain—apart from the British tourists.

The above comments certainly do give food for thought. One thought that crossed my mind, was just how fragile a thing a society really is, and just what damage can be caused by quite insignificant changes.

I don't think the stopping of school milk has had any long term effect, but seemingly progressive changes, as when the comprehensive system of schooling was adopted, have certainly had a devastating effect.

The 1960's seem to mark some sort of watershed in the education system, with many unintended consequences creating a 'perfect storm' of educational destruction.

The governments of Wilson, Heath and Callaghan, all contributing to the rapidily decling standards of that time. That such a decline was as a result of numerous small changes, rather than any one massive reorganisation must surely highlight the fragility of the original system.

The dysfunctional parents of today are the ones' who were scarred and have suffered by the changes of that era.

It was the era of 'change for changes sake', and set the tone for the next generation, and was exemplified by the antics of Blair, whose attempt to destroy so many links with the past verged almost on mania.

That the 60's are generally seen as some sort of 'time of renaissance', just has to be one of the sickest jokes ever played on a nation...

Ernest

It was the sainted Thatcher who closed more grammar schools than any other Education Secretary.

Peter,

Did I dispute that? We all know she was the Ed Minister under Heath and that was when it happened, in the era that I mentioned.

I am no fan of the Lady, as she was far too keen herself, on throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Her one saving act was bringing the unions to heel, just such a pity she didn't finish the job completely. If ever there was a group 'past it's sell-by date', it is the unions, closely followed by the hacks, thieves and scroungers we have at Westminster.

Noel: "related to a sense of social worthlessness and inferiority... and - especially in the case of the UK, but also Ireland - a large dose of cultural arrogance."

I think you need to fine tune your theory here. I don't think you can have a sense of "social worthlessness," and at the same time enjoy "cultural arrogance."

I also think you need to perhaps remove your rose-tinted glasses regarding "the well-mannered and unpretentious young lads in Scandinavia" and the "gentle and cooperative Italian youth."

Any minute now you'll be waxing eloquent on the discipline and wholesomeness of German youth before WW II.

Rather than blame "cultural arrogance," and inferioty complexes blame the waning influence of the church, the breakdown of the family, and the failures of the schools.

In other words, blame the left, and the "counter culture."

Patty,

I always believed that civilization radiates outward from Scandinavia. The farther one is from Oslo or Stockholm the less civilized one is likely to be.

Whoops, I just realized the USA is quite a ways from the Nordic lands :0)

Ernest,

Can't say I agree about the unions. Sure they went too far in the 1960s but now we have thousands of underpaid employees, mostly women, at the mercy of exploitative employers. Contracts are a memory and one can be fired at will. Not a good work environment. Britain lags behind the rest of Europe with regard to job satisfaction.

Glad to hear all is well Mike.

Dawkins,

Are you sure the unions would be an answer to the current employment problems? I doubt that more of the same poison that killed industrial Britain would now resucitate the corpse...

That they spawned so many of the current crop of NuLab politicians could well account for the extremly poor performnance of the government, one only has to look at Ministers such as Balls and Johnson to see examples of poorly educated nonentities who have delusions of competence, both qualities generic to the union mentality, they know little, are unwilling to learn, and do far more harm to their members than any 'exploitve employer', quite blithely discarding them and their welfare when the convenience and opportunity for their own personal gain and agrandissment arises. You will note both are quite keen on the immigration of low paid labour from the EU.

'Exploitive employers' - and just when we thought the class war and it's rhetoric were a thing of the past...

Patty,

>>I don't think you can have a sense of "social worthlessness," and at the same time enjoy "cultural arrogance."<<

You can, and very many do. I explained how above.

>>I also think you need to perhaps remove your rose-tinted glasses regarding "the well-mannered and unpretentious young lads <<

What put it into your head that I have any particular affection for Scandinavians? I don't. But Ive been there many times and so far has seen only one example of rowdiness. It was caused by a group of visiting Irish (no, not including me).

I've also been in Italy about 12 times over the past 6 years, in which time I saw only one street brawl. A restaurant owner and a waiter were badly beaten up by a gang who refused to pay for their food. They were English.

If you have any counterexamples, you can tell us.

>>Any minute now you'll be waxing eloquent on the discipline and wholesomeness of German youth before WW II.<<

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

>>In other words, blame the left, and the "counter culture."<<

But why should I? The blinkers you have on preventing you seeing the reality around you are obviously already working well enough.

Ernest,

Yes, agreed about Balls and Johnson. Very mediocre performances.

"'Exploitive employers' - and just when we thought the class war and it's rhetoric were a thing of the past..."

Alas, exploitation continues to be part of our world and not a thing of the past. As long as that's the case I'll continue to decry it.

Noel,

Your foreign experiences mirror my own to some extent.

Well, blimey, it was pure coincidence that I alluded to the McScams in my above comment - today I read that Shannon's mother apparently knew where the poor girl was being hidden all along, and that her relatives have been trying to scam the McScams for money from their own McScam fund! Was Shannon's "kidnap" all intended as an elaborate scam in the first place?
This story is becoming almost as barmy as the former one, except at least it doesn't involve a child's death this time. I'm thankful for that at least. I hope poor Shannon will be taken care of from now on. It's too late to wish that for poor Madeleine.

Tom,

Who or what are the "McScams"?

Who indeed? Very good question.
When is a door not a door? When it's ajar.
When is a so-called ordinary family holiday not a holiday? When it's in a Tapas bar.

Dawkins

The parents of the most famous missing girl in the world. Tom has a certain bee in his bonnet about them but he ought to be careful what he says. They have won some big libel awards recently.

Suitably frightened by the above, I shall say no more, for now. It's OK, there's no hurry.

LOL, a lyric comes to mind -

"There's no hurry
We can take this slow
And don't worry:
No-one has to know!

I'm yours, she's mine
Two's company, but three have a better time
We've got a mountain to climb"

Colm,

Thanks.

Tom,

Have you no compassion? Why are you dancing on that child's grave? Jeeze!

I hope for your sake you never lose a family member in the tragic way the McCanns did.

Steady on. There hasn't been a body found yet. Until then, we can still hope..

Dawkins,

I think Tyler's comments say more about him than the McCanns.

Especially that 12.26...