You can smell the fear in the Republicans. It is a primitive fear. As unbecoming as it is heartfelt. Whatever problems the Democrats have, and they have several, it is nothing compared to Grand Canyon of anxiety that the Republican party stalwarts are feeling. They are bringing a knife to a gun fight and they know it deep down in the dark, quiet place where they whisper to themselves.

Rush is right, she messed up a little but not enough to falter.

Mahons: Needless to say, I don't agree. But I prefer not to argue with you - don't have the time and it does nothing for me.

I disagree with one of your sentences Patty.

I found Kucinich very entertaining - uncontrollable sniggering overtook me everytime he opened his mouth. Ron Paul has a similar effect.

I wish they'd just do a pie fight and call it a day.

Patty: Thank God it does nothing for you, I am a happily married man and would hate to disappoint you.

Mahons: I would bother but you don't have the mental chops to make it worth my while.

One of the things I was struck by last night, was how little solid experience she actually has to be President. Her own list of accomplishments sounded like a resume for a NGO social worker position.

Her flip flop on illegal alien driver licenses in her state is indicitive of many of her positions - she's afraid to take one.

Patty: I may lack the necessary mental chops but remain willing to lower my mental standards anytime you wish to debate.

Daphne: I think it would be more accurate that she isn't afraid to take a position (else why would she cause so much alarm for conservatives), but that she is trying to avoid being critical of supporter Spitzer who is in a downward spiral on the subject.

Well, I think that's disingenuous of her then. If she disagrees, she ought to say so. If she likes it, like Obama does, then she should say so. Political pandering makes her appear smarmy and it certainly gives her competitors as well as her foes a big stick to hit her with.

It reminds me of her Iraq stance which flips with the wind. What does the woman think?

Plus her "I will appoint a blue ribbon panel" line to every other meaty question is disturbing. Opinion please, it doesn't have to be an exact policy stance, but a general idea of where she stands would be enlightening. Everything is complex for Christ's sake, but can you give us a hint Mrs. Clinton?

**before you go off on me, I have the same litmus test for GOPer's too. Tell me what YOU think.

Mahons; "remain willing to lower my mental standards anytime you wish to debate."

I find this very phony, Mahons. In the past I have tried to debate you in good faith and you have answered me with evasive "jokes" or mean spirited sniping.

I simply cannot abide a phony, Mahons. Go pretend with someone else.

Daphne: I agree that many of her positions are quite calculated (which doesn't seem to be a trait unknown to the political class). And prefer a political answer to a dumb one. She should have seen this issue coming and anticipated the question. To me that is more of a problem than a poltical answer. I think she was correct in saying that immigration needs to be addressed at the national level, and incorrect in not saying that Spitzer made a mistake.

Patty: I actually believe you don't understand that if you say something outrageous, moronic or offensive that someone (me) isn't going to call you to task for it. If you build it I will come.

Agreed on the political class Mahons. Still, why do we accept this sort of crap as acceptable?

Hillary fudges on everything except her committment to Universal programs - otherwise known as redistribution of wealth and government nanny state controls over basic citizen choice and responsibilities.

Mahons: 'I actually believe you don't understand that if you say something outrageous, moronic or offensive that someone (me) isn't going to call you to task for it. If you build it I will come."

Bush was elected by the majority of the people in the US in the last election. Does that make the majority "morons?" Are conservatives, by definitions, "morons?"

You don't seem able to get your brain around the fact that I think differently from you, that I have opinions which differ from yours, and that if you call me a "moron" each time I express my opinions, I will find it offensive.

This may come as a shock but I don't find you wise, sensitive, sensible, or even particularly insightful. I don't agree with most of your opinions. But in the past, I have tried in good faith to engage with you in debate . I do not assume that I know everything.

I recommend to you some humility as it truly is the path to salvation.

Patty: I've never written that someone who voted for Bush was a moron. I've never said that conservatives are morons. I have never written or believed any such thing. I leave blanket expressions of distain for groups of people to you (read your own words above about "lefties").

As to my personal path to salvation I appreciate the suggestion but I'll take my chances with a slightly higher authority. Can one really be damned for making fun of and/or disagreeing with conservatives? Wait until I tell O'Dwyer.

Mahons - don't bring up the anti-Christ, there's enough heat here.

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

Keep going Mahons and Patty. I like nothing more than a good old fashioned bitchslapping hair pulling nailscratching punch up on ATW !

Colm, you're incorrigible! I just love your sweet butt to pieces, you make me smile every day.

When you coming to help me paint darlin'?

Patty, you copped out of the debate with your very first comment on your own thread. Go for the points at issue and forget the form and the competition.

How come Daphne is the only one here who constantly says offensive things without anyone getting offended.

It's a rare art.

BTW: one thing that always puzzled me about these heated primaries is how, after one candidate is finally chosen by the party, the others manage to line up in solidarity behind him (or her) as if nothing had happened, as if they had always thought so highly of him and had not spent the past months trying to convince the world he would make a lousy President.

How have they in the past managed such a volte face without making themselves look comic?

>>I like nothing more than a good old fashioned bitchslapping hair pulling nailscratching punch<<

LOL. ATW goes to Nashville

Give me (backing vocals: Give meeeee)
Give me an old-fashioned thread
Bring me (Bring meeeee)
Some thread where he hates
what she hates when she hated what he said
A good old-fashioned thread
The kind that makes you wanna smash his head
A good old fashioned
Bitch-slapping
Hair pulling
Nail-scratching thread.

Patty

If Mahons evokes O'Dwyer then I suggest you evoke 'Adrian'. He gets Mahons goat every time and for once Id wager you'd find yourselves on the same side.

Patty: In the interests of detente I will recall the planes and missles and stand down to Code Orange. I can not make the declaration of the fighting Indian warrior Chief Joseph who said "I will fight no more forever", but I will try to minimize personal slings and arrows. After all, it is All Saints Day today, and I should at least aspire to goodness if I can't achieve it entirely. Peace Out.

Alison: I've written to Adrian and asked him to pray for me. He said he would once he stops praying for George Bush to be made UN Sec. General.

>>He gets Mahons goat every time and for once Id wager you'd find yourselves on the same side.<<

mahons, have you any idea how the myth of you being a left winger ever started?

Noel: Funny isn't it? I suppose if one doesn't echo current rightwing positions on every subject one is labeled a left winger. It seems to be a strategy of calling any who disagree with the conservative orthodoxy as "liberals" or "leftwingers" or "soft on terrorist" or "unpatriotic". I think it is easier to label me as such for them than to defend their positions.

Poor, poor lefties...labeled. unfairly. labeled lefties...ahhh, the injustice of it. Tears, please.

I learned to label, actually, on ATW -- after being called "rightworld" umpteen billion times. And you know what? If the label fits, wear it.

It makes discussion easier. Identifies similarities and differences.

And if commenters are in good faith and wish to comment and debate outside of the box -- outside of the label -- we all know how to do this...don't we. Yes. We do.

Colm: You're 9:47 was hilarious.

Noel and Mahons: im not sure how you concluded that from my line about Adrian but the bullshit that followed was second to none. Anyone would think it doesnt cut both ways!

Alison: Relax. I thought your line about old Adrian was funny. Noel was probably referring to an earlier thread in which Troll was going Hiroshima on me on one topic as a damned liberal while Noel and I were duking it out on another thread where I was taking a more conservative approach.

Daphne: I keep reading and rereading Matthew 5:38-42 in light of your e-mail this morning. See me turn the other cheek?

OK i thought that was misdirected and I apologise. I really do wish we could all debate without 'lefty this and rightworld that'. It spoils the debate and is very typical of ATW so I think Patty has a point. You end up duking it out over labels instead of issues. Now if youll excuse me im off to finish off Rasta the Anglophobe on the other thread.

Alison and Daphne: You both are great.

Oh .. and Mahons.. don't be a putz.(a Hollywood colloguialism to amuse you ...yiddish, actually.) If you're going to turn the other cheek, I'll have to feel sorry for you ...and you irritate me far too much for that.

Always Look On the Bright Side of Life.

Has peace broken out?...cue John Lennon singalong!!!

David: Peace -that glorious time in the course of history where everyone is reloading.*

The Yellow Rose of Texas requested that I try, so I will try.

*Can't recall who first said that but I stole it.