"Now, shall we give them a State?"

Not sure what you mean by "we". Let the Izzies give them a state and have done with this senseless violence.

Give them a State alright - a state of fear.

David,

The Izzies have already given them that, and the fear has engendered a tit-for-tat campaign of violence. Don't you feel it's time to put an end to all that? I for one do.

>>To be fair to be Palestinians, it's not JUST Jews that they hate. No, <<

Go and ask the Christians - including priests - in the West Bank who exactly they consider their worst oppressors. Then come back here and publish their answers.

I dare you.

Dawkins, - Of course you do! - it is of little consequence to you, - you have neither strived for, nor sacrificed anything for an ideal. As with so many armchair pundits, giving away that which is not yours to give, is a very easy option...

Noel,

You have done so, I take it?...or is this just another of your assumptions?

Ernest

We are all armchair pundits here - pontificating on events and procedures we have neither ownership of or responsibility for . If we were to stay silent on matters we weren't in control off we'd all be trappist monks.

Ernest

It's a statement of the obvious. Do you think there is much chance that Palestinian Christians in occupied territories are Pro-Israeli ?

>>You have done so, I take it?...or is this just another of your assumptions?<<

Ernest, Neither, I met them outside the West Bank. There are also enough reports of Christian resistance to Israeli oppression. I'll search out the names of the priests for you - appropriately, from Bethlehem - if you wish.

But do you believe that if David heard any such reports he would actually publish them here?

none of it really matters noel. david had already dropped his steaming load and bolted for cover. which is all you can do when you want to report relatively isolated incidents and leave the impression of a pattern.

I've talked to Christians across the Arab world and I cant say I've met many fans of Israel among them. Even the Lebo Christians I met, who frankly hated the Palis, werent the keenest on the Israelis.

I would be pretty certain that the members of the school bombed would have considered themselves Palestinian.

What the bombing does show isthe authoritarian / totalitarian fascist strain among branches of Islam. We all knew about that of course.

Unless I have misread there don't appear to be casualties. I don't understand the context here but am glad of that at least.

Colm,

"Do you think there is much chance that Palestinian Christians in occupied territories are Pro-Israeli ?

That wasn't the question, which was, "who exactly they consider their worst oppressors."

They may well have disliked both factions,- that is understandable, but I doubt that Israelis would take to bombing them, - do you?... so I would have thought the answer would be that the arabs were the worst oppressors, what with there declared intent re infidels...

>>so I would have thought the answer would be that the arabs were the worst oppressors, <<

Back to the school books, Ernest - they are themselves Arabs!

Noel,

Of course they are arabs, did you expect them to be anything else?

But they are being persecuted by a different religious faction. - A bit like NI when you think about it!...which makes the oppression even worse.

Ernest

Then you should say that you believe Arab Muslims are oppressing the Christian Arabs more than the Israelis are. But comparing a single bombing incident with decades of hostility to an occupying power is not an accurate analyis.

Christians are nothing but reformed Jews of course the Pallis and other Muslims attack them just like the good little Nazi's that they are.

Maronites, Coptics, Palestinian/Arab Christians......
it's a whole melting-pot in that area, all being swept along together.

This from a survey:
The proportion of Christians in the Palestinian territories has dropped from 15 percent of the Arab population in 1950 to less than 1 percent today. Three-fourths of all Bethlehem Christians now live abroad, and the majority of the city’s population is Muslim. The Christian population declined 29 percent in the West Bank and 20 percent in the Gaza Strip from 1997 to 2002. By contrast, in the period 1995–2003, Israel’s Arab Christian population grew 14.1 percent (CAMERA, December 24, 2004).

Ernest,

As a matter of fact it is of consequence to me. I visit Israel on occasion and would rather I felt safe there rather than continually looking over my shoulder uneasily. The sooner a peace deal is struck and the Pallies get their own state the better for everyone—including me.

Dawkins,

And just who is to give them this State? The UN, - who originally oversaw the formation of modern Israel, and who have since ignored the problem in any meaningful way? - in whose remit is it to donate such munificence?.

Given the absolute mess they have made, wherever they have settled, it might be a larger problem than just signing over the title deeds to a piece of real estate.

Assuming they eventually do get a place, will they still be able to rely on the rest of the arab world to bankroll them, in the manner to which they have become accustomed since 1948.

Since that time the 'Palestinians' sole reason for being has been as an aggravation to Israel, funded by Syria, Iraq, et al. On getting their own place they may well be expected to make their own way in the world, something I very much doubt they are capable of...

Still - as long as you will be OK, that's all that matters...

Ernest,

"And just who is to give them this State?"

I should think the Izzies. You may not agree.

"On [the Pallies] getting their own place they may well be expected to make their own way in the world, something I very much doubt they are capable of..."

That's frightfully condescending of you. However, you probably make that statement out of ignorance. I'd recommend you read Fisk's Pity the Nation for the skinny on the Pallies. I'd quote from it here if I hadn't lent it to a friend.

"Still - as long as you will be OK, that's all that matters..."

Thanks, mate. I appreciate your concern for me. But likely you missed the words "the better for everyone" in my previous post.

Sigh. There is an old Kingston Trio song where they hunerously recount who hates who in the world and end with the line "And I don't like anybody very much". I still laugh when I hear it. There is enough hate to go around.

something I very much doubt they are capable of.

id say theyve proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are more than capable. the likes of you and i would probably last a week the the conditions palestinians endure.

whats amazing is that you have convinced yourself the palestinians are in a situation entirely of their own making and that there are no other factors. you, like david, will never see the realities of that region because you dont want to look too hard lest it shatter carefully held myths. the same goes for far too many others.

let this be some measure of antidote

http://tinyurl.com/6nk2wl

Daytripper,

That's an excellent video. I believe you linked to it before? And let me again urge Ernest and others here to read Pity the Nation. It's an eyeopener by a man who saw Arafat and others come and go and has a deep understanding of the entire region.

Dawkins,

I'm far from being condescending re the 'pallies', as you like to call them, - well it does make them seem a bit more cuddly, doesn't it?

I am of an age that I was around for the start of this whole sorry mess, I even had a relative who was a high ranking officer in the Palestine Police Force.

So please allow me some leeway in feeling that I probably know as much about Palestine as any casual observer has access to, i.e news reports, film clips and meeting a few people who live there.

Now I know we are all a tad sceptical when it comes to TV news, and the media in general, but I assure you it was not so 'back then'. Those were the times when most of what you read or heard, had a fair degree of integrity, very unlike now, where spin is the name of the game.

The whole Israel/Palestinian drama has been rewritten so many times, the reality bears little resemblance to the facts. Your man Fisk being one of the worst offenders. He does have as bad a record of anti-semitism as you are fond of attributing to the BNP, or the National Front, indeed, many in academia are of a similar frame of mind.

Back to the subject. The Arabs, almost unanimously accepted the formation of Israel, which was itself the culmination of very many years of international discusssion, via the Balfour Declaration and the League of Nations.

Yes, some the Jewish people were terrorists, mainly against the British, who were the main authourity there at that time. My relative who I mentioned earlier, was assasinated by the Irgun a.k.a. the Stern Gang, as a reprisal for arresting Yitzhak Shamir, who years later became a PM of Israel.

After the formation of Israel there was a lot of bickering on all sides, and the end result was the Palestian faction, almost deliberately, - and I chose the word deliberately, - making themselves outcasts and throwing the most disastrous tantrum of all time, knowing full well that they had little chance of turning back the clock as far as Israel was concerned. They were conned into attempting a fait accompli, by their supposed friends.

Even then they were into bombing and self detonation, much of it instigated by their backers in other Arab nations.

These 'other nations' were using the refugee camps for their own political ends, remember the political scene in the Middle East was very different then from now, and there was capital to be made in formenting trouble.

The six day war, didn't help matters when a group of Arab nations attacked Israel. Yes, they did have provocation, but they were not prepared for the total humiliation of losing so badly. The rise of Arafat was perhaps one of the less good things to befall the Palestinians. Many others have used the Palestinian plight for their own benefit.

In short the whole situation has gone from bad to worse, - the only enduring factor being the demise of Israel, nothing less will do, it has become a religion for the 'refugee people', who are in fact , even disliked by other Arabs, having a repuation for being troublemakers. Others take up the cause, as and when it suits them...

Apologies for the simplistic summary, but I really have little sympathy for either side, they being more victims of their own seperate histories and philosphies, as of hatred for each other.

Unfortunately a workable solution seems unlikely without some strict enforcement of a 'code of conduct' for both sides.

This is a tragedy as bad as anything seen before, and is destined to get worse...

Hello UN, - isn't this what your raison d'etre is all about? but then your standing and integrity are now so low that we are unlikely to see that happening...

DT,

I have no misapprehensions of just what the Israelis are capable of. As for surviving a la Palestinian for a week or so, isn't that also true for the Israelis having to endure the pertual rocket attacks, and worse?

I really do not see the Israelis as major aggressors in this instance. Don't forget one of the tenets of Judaism is 'An eye for an eye'...and it has served them well for centuries, - how else would they have survived for so long, with what they have been subjected to? Unfortunately they are against an enemy who has similar ideas, and given the odds against them who can blame them?

Very well measured and incisive comment Ernest. This issue is a classic one -perhaps the most potent and well worn one - of simplistic side taking political posturing. It isnt a simple one side right and one side wrong scenario. All International bodies and powers involved in the Middle east chess game have played their hands badly, though I will accept that Israel deserves greater tolerance of it's behaviour given it's real security fears, but the stateless people of the Palestinian territories have been used as pawns for over 50 years and few interested parties have shown real incentive to ever really deal seriously and honourably with the problem.

Earnest, that was one of the most informative and reasonable comments that I've ever read on this site regarding the Palestinian/Israel situation.

Do you have a blog?

>>Earnest, that was one of the most informative and reasonable comments that I've ever read on this site regarding the Palestinian/Israel situation.<<

Daphne, that's only because you don't read historical or objective material.

Otherwise you would have recognised Ernest's piece for the distorted propaganda it is.

He makes no mention of Israeli massacres of Arabs that drove the Palestinians from their land in Israel (1948), nor the subsequent massive confiscations of Arab land based on laws of ethnic/racist supremacy, he claims the Arabs attacked Israel in 1967 when it was Israel that attacked the Arabs, and of course we find not a word about the further massive confiscations of the land Israel occupied in that war, not of the banishments and general oppression and humiliation of the a people in their own country - the West Bank.

The whole history of Palestine has been one of Israeli expansion at the expense of the Arabs from the word Go, based on an ethnic myth - which is of course just a holy excuse for land grabbing.

I have no misapprehensions of just what the Israelis are capable of.

all of it acceptable? im getting the tingly sensation you wont be on the streets in a hurry if they just started shooting palestinians in ditches.

, isn't that also true for the Israelis having to endure the pertual rocket attacks, and worse?

no. far from it. the vast majority of israelis are not exposed to large amounts of risk. whereas the vast majority of palestinians are constantly exposed to risk and deprevation. we can safely assume this to be true by merely looking at the numbers. if you want to compare then investigate both sides and then get back to me.

I am of an age that I was around for the start of this whole sorry mess, I even had a relative who was a high ranking officer in the Palestine Police Force.

so what? maybe i should ask for the top job at NASA because i was "around" for the first Shuttle launch.
theres nothing incisive or informative about such drivel.

Noel

And you are engaging in exactly the same simplistic one-sided Black and White mentatilty that does not address or deal with the issue. You also ignore the context behind the Israeli pre-emptive strike in 1967. The undeniable tri-partite plan to 'surprise' Israel which had it been succesfull would have eviscerated the state. What was Israel to do. Sit and wait to be attacked or do what was necessary to maximise it's chances of survival. How Israel has dealt with the territories it conquered is wrong and counter productive I agree, but it is naive to lay the bulk of the blame for the tragic situation in that part of the world just on them.

"Daphne, that's only because you don't read historical or objective material."

True that I don't read much academic historical material on Israel/Palestine, I wouldn't say that all of the rest of what I read is all pro-Israel biased opinion. We all take sides on an issue depending on our perspective - you have, based on yours.

There seems to be a lot of propaganda on both sides Noel. As I've said here before, I believe the Palestinian people are doing themselves no favors with their continued violence and choice of horrible leadership. There is no doubt that Israel has been heavy-handed, but there won't be any peace until the terrorist (freedom fighter, if you wish) attacks stop and all of the leadership comes to table in good faith.

I have little hope that there will ever be any goodwill and respect between the two sides and I'm very weary of America's continued involvement in the conflict. Honestly, I wish we would just sell Israel her weapons and get the hell out of their Middle East political problems. We treat them as a satellite state, in my opinion.

I believe the Palestinian people are doing themselves no favors with their continued violence and choice of horrible leadership.

Daphne. Making the case for collective punishment!

Honestly, I wish we would just sell Israel her weapons and get the hell out of their Middle East political problems. We treat them as a satellite state, in my opinion.

your six litre engine in the drive way says otherwise.

daytripper

That response about collective punishment was unfair. Daphne never even hinted that the Palestinians deserve that. I belive she was simply re-iterating that things like suicide bombing and the firing of rockets at the borders are completely counter-productive and that choosing Hamas is just not going to advance any sort of political settlement to their benefit.

All that Colm.

tripper, you're suggesting I buy a horse and cart?

Oh Noel....

‘There is no such country as Palestine. “Palestine” is a term the Zionists invented. [...]Our country was for centuries part of Syria. “Palestine” is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it.’
Auni Bey Abdul-Had, Local Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937

‘There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not.’
Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946

‘It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria’.
Ahmed Shukairy, United Nations Security Council, 1956

‘The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.’
Zahir Muhsein, PLO March 31, 1977
‘Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.’
King Hussein 1982

‘Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian? We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag. When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out’.
Walid Shoebat, former PLO terrorist.

Allan

It is irrelvent whether 'Palestine' or 'Palestinians' exist as a seperate entity or not, what is undeniable is the existence of millions of stateless people in those territories who are not Israelis and require some form of stautory identity and ownership which they do not have.

Ernest,

If you have a problem with the term "Pallies" take it up with David Vance. I learnt it from him.

You were condescending when you doubted the ability of an entire people to "make their own way in the world." How dare you?

Robert Fisk, one of the world's finest journalists, knows infinitely more than you about the situation. And biased? He visited Sabra and Shatila the morning after Sharon's murderous puppets had massacred the men, women and children. His eyewitness account of this and other atrocities is harrowing.

And what makes you think journos of "your" day spun less than those in "my" time?

Colm, the fact is that there is nothing which can define a 'palestinian' as a palestinian means that they who are supposedly palestinian have no claim for a state. Those in the west bank are Jordanian (or Syrian), whilst those in the gaza strip are Egyptian. That the arabs living there are stateless is because Egypt and Jordan ensure that it is so.

The massacres in Sabra and Chatila were dreadful. What would cause people to act like that - eh, Dawkins?

Allan

Your post at 10.21 could be read to mean that there is no right to a United Kingdom. The (supposed) British are actually English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish.

Daytripper,

"the vast majority of israelis are not exposed to large amounts of risk. whereas the vast majority of palestinians are constantly exposed to risk and deprevation. we can safely assume this to be true by merely looking at the numbers. if you want to compare then investigate both sides and then get back to me."

Yes, this is difficult to argue against. I don't recall huge numbers of Izzies dying in recent years when Hamas and others were sending in the rockets. But I do recall huge casualty figures among the Pallies, almost 5 times the death toll among the "enemy."

Allan,

"The massacres in Sabra and Chatila were dreadful. What would cause people to act like that - eh, Dawkins?"

Bloodlust?

Is Allan trying to raise the idea that there might have been a justification for those massacres ?

Colm,

Oh, I think Allan is simply being Allan :0)

Colm, Charles showed up at the private after hours club! He's writing!

Dawkins

Is that Allan spelt A.D.O.L.F. ?

Colm,

Tut-tut, naughty boy :0)

Dawkins

Oops, my dyslexia is showing again ;)

Oh dear! Dawkins and Colm are playing their "anybody who disagrees with me must be a nazi" card.

The massacres at Sabra and Chatila were preceded by 'something'. In this modern age, there's no need not to know. I used to be as ignorant as Dawkins and Colm about the 'something' and whilst the 'something' certainly doesn't justify (that is what Colm wrote) the massacre, it does go some way to explaining the nature of those who call themselves 'palestinians' and what the Israelis must defend themselves against.

From Saturday, May 17, 2008 at 10:35PM | Dawkins, it definitely looks as though Dawkins wants a few more Jews dead so that the numbers can be balanced - only fair, eh Dawkins! And you attempt to slur me as a nazi?