Saturday
05Jul2008
Back to Reality, The War
Saturday, July 5, 2008 at 06:34PM The following video is an explanation of what we are fighting and the difference in how we in the west view or should view the conflict. I would like to know who agrees or disagrees with the views that are expressed. I would also expect you to state the reasons why you agree or disagree. I am betting that there is a large group who can't even sit for the 8.48 minutes that the video runs. Partly because they can't move past their hate for the speaker, and partly because their attention span won't last that long.
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Reader Comments (94)
Good video. I liked the guy's question:
"Who is the enemy? What do they want? And why do you understand them to be the enemy?"
and I wish this was discussed in public far more than it is. We still do not seem to have much consensus on this.
Also, Rumsfield's point about poverty v. prosperity, that we should NOT ask:
"where does poverty come from?"
BUT instead ask:
"where does prosperity come from?"
Is an excellent point.
Rumsfeld is a great intellect - demonised by the left and cast adrift by Bush.
My opinion of Rumsfeld has gone up. There is little he said here that I could disagree with.
But he'd be more convincing if he hadn't screwed up Iraq so badly. Disbanding the Iraqi army was a gift to the jihadists, which they have exploited ever since.
Great to know you gave the SecDef a fair hearing Peter. Knowing who the enemy is is one thing, but as you say, knowing how to fight them is another.
Reminded me of Blairs excellent speech on the same subject before he was drummed out of office over Iraq. It was a phenomenal speech and important because few leaders bother to outline the 'broader' issues as Rumsfeld called them. Ive always liked Rumsfeld. Plus he was well into the British Special Forces and brought them into various aspects in a big way not only to lead in some instances but to copy. Cool man.
A neo-con scumbag is what Rumsfeld is. With a bunch of yes men in the audience, Military famalies. Obviously they don't want to hear their loved ones sacrifice is purley for materialistic endeavour. The old coot talks as if he is an Islamic scholar which he evidently is not. Utter nonsense.
whats nonsense about it. other than your hatred for the person and patronising contempt for the intelligence of families in the audience, what are you specific issues with his actual points.
His inability to admit the real reason why the USA invaded Iraq. Hows that for starters?
Rumsfeld rocks. Great video Troll. I can't disagree with his opinions on the islamists and the wide ranging scope of terrorism.
That was not the question he was asked. Less of course islamist terrorism doesnt exist in your world view. The people of NYC, London, Bali, Madrid and victims of countless other islamist incidents might beg to differ.
If he is asked about Iraq next time round we can pull that to pieces. Meanwhile what did you make of his actual points as an answer to the question posed.
RS looks like another myopic muslim apologist Alison. Now we have two!
He was first asked who the enemy are, what they want and why they are the enemy. He tried to claim bthrough bogus rhetoric that the conflict is reflective of a conflict within Islam itself. typical political bullshit. Secondly he refused to admit the USA's activities in the middle east and support for the settler state of Israel was anything to do with the problem. Funnily though he admitted it was a small minority trying to hijack Islam against the wishes of the vast majority of muslims, yet to hear many of the posters on here,in all the threads regaridng that religion, its Islam that is at fault and not just the idiots who use it to guide their actions. He also mentioned people trying to make 'msichief', that would be the USA and Britain then, stirring up sectarian tensions to prevent the bullets being fired at them. He also mentions Iran trying to influence the outcome of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iran has a right to interfere in these wars, tjhey are on its doorstep ffs, if Canada or Mexico were invaded by a country half way around the world, they would do exactly what iran is doing.
His claim that the USA is not whats wrong with the world is laughable. Client states, covert wars, illegal invasions and threats to countries who won't play the house arab, are blissfully ignored by neo-cons as having anything to do with the worlds ills. once agin utter nonsence.
....there are unknown-knowns-and-known-unknowns-and-we-don't-know-the unknowns-but-know-the-knowns...etc-etc..
The Yanks are in Ire-rack for the OIL, and I wish we had the sensible foresight to have done the same now it's become a scarce commodity.
That other liquid, water, is even more precious, which is why someone is going to make a grab for the Tigris.
RS represents the internal danger that we face. He is not concerned about the threat or the dead in NY or London or anywhere in the world for that matter.
In his view we in the west are to blame, just as he stated the other night that the jews were never persicuted before the formation of Israel so they and we are to blame for the pally rocket attacks.
Look at his rant "neocon" "the real reason we went to Iraq" a neocon is a converted liberal Rummy was never a liberal.
The real reason we went to Iraq I would guess in the feeble machinations of RSs mind that means Oil.
The fact that the just settled contracts for that Oil last month were given in majority to non-american/western developers. Is a fact that means nothing. The press in this country had headlines calling it a betrayal... got to laugh at the hypocrosy of that.
RS is the perfect representation of the selfloathing mamby bamby no one is to blame for their own actions culture that we have allowed the leftist peace love and bobby sherman generation to implant into our society.
A man holds a gun to their heads and says convert or die and it's the fault of the man with the gun to his head.
'just as he stated the other night that the jews were never persicuted before the formation of Israel'
Ok Troll please demonstrate where i stated that Jews were never persecuted before the formation of Israel.
I await the link or your inevitable apology. I won't hold my breath for either, because you have just made a liar out of yourself.
Bernard, if we're there for the oil, why haven't we taken it? Petrol is at record prices here as well.
no I didn't and you just did it again above by calling it the "settler state" of Israel
You also prove my comment above with this line
"He also mentioned people trying to make 'msichief', that would be the USA and Britain then, stirring up sectarian tensions to prevent the bullets being fired at them."
Your a fool
Come on troll this is a direct quote from you...
'just as he stated the other night that the jews were never persicuted before the formation of Israel'
now show where i stated this or apologise.
As regards britian and USA stirring up sectarian tensions your obvioulsy ignorant of every colonial war britain has engaged in. Study your histopry a little bit, in particular, Brig Gen Frank kitson and his psuedo gangs and false flag operations policies. then go to a mirror, stand infront of it and repeat the last three words of your post.
Here ya go fool
'I guess he also condemns the treatment of jews in the middle east Right'
I guess you realise that anti-semitism in Islamic countries is recent import from western christianity. Prior to the artificial creation of 'Israel' in 1948, anti-semitism was basically a chrisitian trait. But many propagandists would have the sheep believe Islam has always been anti-semitic, which if one studies history and the Koran is obvioulsy not the case.
Saturday, July 5, 2008 at 01:45AM | RS
That my weak minded friend is blaming the jews and the west fore the muslims behavior and it is also a direct implcation that the muslims did not persicute jews before then
'Here ya go fool'
first off, what you gettin angry for....
Now for a third time i ask after you said
'just as he stated the other night that the jews were never persicuted before the formation of Israel'
Where i have stated this. Either you are incapable of reading or your clutching at straws. Yopu stated that i stated Jews were never persecuted before the formation of israel (1948) and laughably you go and provide a quote from me which highlights persecution of Jews by christians pre 1948. LMAO, please keep going, im having a ball.
Also what behaviour of muslims am i blaming the west and jews for?
Charley- early days yet old boy, early days.
Iraq has the 4th largest known-unknown reserves in the world. When the $/barrel reaches 200, people will be slapping the Yanks on the back and saying "keep shooting, keep pumping lads!"
Ahh a quick change eh Troll
not a change at all it's called editing, something a few of us are inteligent enough to do
you can spin it amyway you choose your statements and your positions speak for themselves.
You and your beliefs are a threat to your neighbors.
It is because you are a fool that I call you one, not because I am angered in anyway, that is also just another wrong perception of yours.
You hate the wrong people and you are to feeble mindedly filled with talking points to see facts.
I would laugh at you if your ignorance did not put others in danger, but since it does I will ridicule you and your kind
Bernard, Rubbish! The oil wil probably get sold to the damned chinese! ;)
I am no fan of Donald Rumsfeld. He is an intelligent man, but then you don’t serve as Secretary of Defence of the largest military in the world twice and be an idiot. [An Idiot instead becomes Commander-in-Chief of the largest military in the world... twice] That being said I am morally opposed to the man.
His reason about fighting Al Queda is quite sound, about a small, tiny minority of Islam trying to control the majority of Muslims.
But that was not the reason they invaded Iraq. They invaded Iraq for one reason, and it is priced at $145.29 a barrel.
The arguments about Iraq being invaded because they supported Terrorism are incorrect. In fact it is estimated that there was no Al Queda presence in Iraq until the Invasion. Also will they invade the UK, Germany and Denmark, who have give shelter and help to the People's Mujahedin of Iran, a movement recognised as a Terrorist movement by the United States and the European Union?
And also about the Weapons of Mass Destruction lie?
Then there is the whole thing about the invasion was to remove an evil, brutal dictator from power. If that is the case, will we expect the American invasion of Zimbabwe, North Korea, China, Burma etc, etc?
It is his lies on the invasion of Iraq that I despise the man on.
His comments though on Iran wanting to control the region need to be mentioned. Is it not natural for the largest, dominant country in a region to attempt to exert itself on its neighbours? Is that not what the Soviet Union did for years in Southeast Asia, Eastern Europe, Afghanistan etc? Is it not what America does in many other countries, such as its continuing attempts to influence Cuba? Is it not what Britain has done for centuries in Ireland? It isn’t an evil thing for Iran to exert itself in the Middle East. It is the perfectly natural thing done by most large powers.
And finally, Patty said
Also, Rumsfield's point about poverty v. prosperity, that we should NOT ask:
"where does poverty come from?"
BUT instead ask:
"where does prosperity come from?"
Is an excellent point.
This is to a degree an excellent point, but not for the reasons that Rumsfeld pointed out. But He tried to make people assume that free and democratic countries will be financially prosperous, which is incorrect. The Republic was free and democratic from 1921 onwards. It didn’t become an economic success until the 1980s. Why, was it because of democracy? Of course not, it was because in the 70s, 80s and 90s the Republic received massive amounts of foreign investment. That is why the Republic of Korea is rich and the People’s Republic of Korea is poor, because the South gets investment and North Korea doesn’t.
'You hate the wrong people'
i don't hate anyone. Tell me who do you hate?
I had no idea it was necessary to hate a group of people to be a fully functioning human being.
'It is because you are a fool that I call you one'
its because ima bit better informed about the subjects i choose to engage in that you feel the need to name call.
'I would laugh at you if your ignorance did not put others in danger'
Its the ignorance of your hero's who put peoples lives in danger.
P.S...keep going, a good giggle you are !
Where is the oil? We aren't getting the concessions people. Charles is correct, it will probably end up in China.
The ordinary decent people in the street won't be the ones benefiting from the invasion of Iraq. It’s the people in the Oil Companies who funded George Bush's Presidential Campaigns.
any chance of that apology Grizzly Mama? or are you not mature enough? or are you just a liar?
Looks like Troll nailed you just fine RS - you said it, he quoted it - no apology necessary. Troll never lies.
Seamus, stop reading the daily kos - it's like crack for liberals, it'll eventually rot what's left of your brains.
I have been accused of many things in my life. Being liberal is not one of them.
Im sorry Daphne, but i fail to see how troll nailed me.
'just as he stated the other night that the jews were never persicuted before the formation of Israel'
Now i still am waiting on the evidence for this statement. the quote from me provided actually disproved this lie. It seems this blog is full of back slapping yes men. laughable. now that you've stuck your oar in Daphne maybe you can hunt down this elusive quote from me?
'Troll never lies'
it seems hes done just that.
RS and Seamus
the fact that Iraq just awarded it's oil contracts to non-western companies is irrelavant the war was still for oil,
The fact 17 resolutions ignored before 9-11 meant one thing but after 9-11 represented a threat means nothing to you
The fact that the stated goal of the Muslim extreamists is conversion of all that will be converted and subjegation of the rest mean nothing to you.
The fact that they go out of their way to target civilians mean nothing to you
the fact that they have been attacking western interests for 30years and are on the verge of getting nuclear weapons mean nothing to you
America and the west invaded Iraq and will bomb Iran because we want their oil
we willingly give them 500 billion dollars a year for a product that we have ample supplies of in our own country, we have not seized one oil field or diverted any oil at a discount rate to our shores
Yet we went to war for oil, and to back up your position you provide what for proof?
Nothing? so your belief is based in faery tales told to you by pot smoking marxist professors and you believe it.
In other words your stupid...lol
If we were going to invade a country for their oil, one would think we would have invaded Venezuela. Closer to home, get rid of a Castro wannabe, much closer to ship ect. Most of Middle Eastern oil ends up in Europe, China, ect. The ME is 4th down our list after Canada, Mexico, and Venezula.
The war for oil is just a canard.
Your words RS?
I guess you realise that anti-semitism in Islamic countries is recent import from western christianity. Prior to the artificial creation of 'Israel' in 1948, anti-semitism was basically a chrisitian trait. But many propagandists would have the sheep believe Islam has always been anti-semitic, which if one studies history and the Koran is obvioulsy not the case.
Correct Daphne.. now please show me where i stated
'...that the jews were never persicuted before the formation of Israel'
?
Sorry if I pegged you wrong Seamus, but your oil for war/backed by big US oil statement is typical liberal pap.
oh your right your not implying that in that statement at all....LOL
and he asks why I said he was a fool
OK lets put your advanced superior powers of observation to work RS provide us with one example that backs up your claim that this is a war for oil
or apolagize
RS - most of the participants here can extrapolate and reasonably infer meaning from another's statements and then take it to the nth degree. You said it, Troll ran with it, deal with it. You want to hide behind pedantics, go ahead...the bushes are small on atw and we like to lift rocks. No cover dude!
Troll doesn't lie. Ever.
'The fact 17 resolutions ignored before 9-11 meant one thing but after 9-11 represented a threat means nothing to you'
I take it you refer to UN resolutions. Remind me again which country is the miost flagrant violator of UN resolutions.
'The fact that the stated goal of the Muslim extreamists is conversion of all that will be converted and subjegation of the rest mean nothing to you.'
Please list which extremist organisations have stated this.
'The fact that they go out of their way to target civilians mean nothing to you'
Seeing as western govts policies in the middle east affect the ordinary civilians and not the military or the elite, you are thus criticizing your own govt.Also im sure if the Palestinians were afforded the luxury of an airforce or an armoured corp they would employ that instead of suicide bombings.
'the fact that they have been attacking western interests for 30years and are on the verge of getting nuclear weapons mean nothing to you'
Funny that the vast majority of these attacks have been in the middle east! in their own land. Again blinded by your innate hardon for globalisation.
'Yet we went to war for oil, and to back up your position you provide what for proof?'
http://money.cnn.com/2003/03/25/news/companies/war_contracts/
You seem ignorant of the fact that the money lies not only in the black in the barrel, but in the contracts to rebuild, maintain, ship and also invading one of the biggest oil producing countries allows the USA to regulate in part world oil production. And if you have any idea of economics what happens if one regulates the production of a commodity? Do i need to break out a copy book and crayons for you?
'In other words your stupid...lol'
great closing argument. how on earth did you get to become a contributor on this blog?????
LMAO, please keep going.
'I guess you realise that anti-semitism in Islamic countries is recent import from western christianity. Prior to the artificial creation of 'Israel' in 1948, anti-semitism was basically a chrisitian trait. But many propagandists would have the sheep believe Islam has always been anti-semitic, which if one studies history and the Koran is obvioulsy not the case.'
Now Daphne, troll used this quote to justify his accusation that i stated
'...the jews were never persicuted before the formation of Israel'
please explain how from my quote you can with a straight face claim i stated the second quote. It seems Daphne your too fond of back slapping an old mate....even when he's been shown to be a liar. LMAO.
RS, I would invite you to suck the wet end of Troll's cigar. I think he legitimately made his point.
It is "Yes Woman", no jock straps in my drawers sweetie.
By the way 'LMAO' labels you as a neophyte, ditch it and you ought to fit in here just fine. Welcome to the big league of fierce, take no prisoners, cross cultural blogdom RS. Glad you decided to pitch in your two cents!
Ha Ha....some deconstruction of my last post. What age are you 15? I've been used to blogs for a while, particularly those which aren't a hornets nest of back slapping yes men. Anyhoo, thanks for the welcome.
That's seriously amusing RS. ;-)
Get back to me in a few weeks big boy.............
ladies and gentelman there you have it the confused mindest of a fool
"I take it you refer to UN resolutions. Remind me again which country is the miost flagrant violator of UN resolutions."
There ladies and gentelman is another attack on Israel
"Please list which extremist organisations have stated this."
Osama Bin Laden in his proclamation, if you read it you would know, Imamadjihad has stated it at least 5 times and the list goes on and on
There ladies and gentelman is Denial of fact
Oh I loved this one
"Seeing as western govts policies in the middle east affect the ordinary civilians and not the military or the elite, you are thus criticizing your own govt.Also im sure if the Palestinians were afforded the luxury of an airforce or an armoured corp they would employ that instead of suicide bombings."
The west is guilty because of sanctions Never mind that its the dictaters and military in the nations that are under sanction that take the food and money they do get and horde it for the leaders and military starving their own people. Typical liberal speak, yet the alternative to sanctions is war so in RSs mind you can't do either.
As for the pallies not having an airforce or real armour the Arab nations which have plenty of both don't give it to them because of the fact that the pallys were thrown out of Jordan and a couple of other arab nation for causing internal problems and they prefer to keep them as the pawns they are while not allowing them to be a threat to them also Read your history fool.
"Funny that the vast majority of these attacks have been in the middle east! in their own land. Again blinded by your innate hardon for globalisation."
Which we accepted and basicly did nothing about for decades. 9-11 changed the rules they attacked us here.
"You seem ignorant of the fact that the money lies not only in the black in the barrel, but in the contracts to rebuild, maintain, ship and also invading one of the biggest oil producing countries allows the USA to regulate in part world oil production. And if you have any idea of economics what happens if one regulates the production of a commodity? Do i need to break out a copy book and crayons for you?"
No citing an antiwar propaganda piece from 5 years ago does not change the fact that two weeks ago the Iraqi government awarded those contracts that you cite above to non-western nations and companies Besides I love it your to stupid to have even read the article you link to
Halliburton, Stevedoring Services of America get government contracts for early relief work.
The Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR) unit of Halliburton (HAL: up $0.54 to $20.66, Research, Estimates), of which Cheney was CEO from 1995 to 2000, said late Monday that it was awarded a contract by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to put out oil fires and make emergency repairs to Iraq's oil infrastructure.
"Awarded by the Army Corp of Engineers" NOT the Iraqi Government that contract is no longer even in place but what do you expect from a git that picks an article just because it mentions the evil haliburton
as for your regulation claim I will repeat where is your proof what American company is regulating Iraqi Oil?
I take it back your not a fool RS stands for Really Stupid
'There ladies and gentelman is another attack on Israel'
Sorry is Israel meant to be immune from criticism?
'Osama Bin Laden in his proclamation, if you read it you would know, Imamadjihad has stated it at least 5 times and the list goes on and on'
I asked for a list and you provide one guy and who? i presume you mean Ahmadinejad. Please provide alink where it shows Ahmadinejad said that his aim
'...is conversion of all that will be converted and subjegation of the rest mean nothing to you.'
'As for the pallies not having an airforce or real armour the Arab nations which have plenty of both don't give it to them because of the fact that the pallys were thrown out of Jordan and a couple of other arab nation for causing internal problems and they prefer to keep them as the pawns they are while not allowing them to be a threat to them also Read your history fool.'
Haven't shaked my head and laughed so hard in a while. Recommended reading 'Image and Reality' by dr Norman Finkelstein. your little bubble will soon burt once you read an honest history. oh and by the way, the author is Jewish.
Honestly grizzly, i've been on many a blog site. but you have to be theeeee most ill-informed contributor i have ever come across. Please keep er lit, my ribs are beginning to hurt.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/30/iraq.oil?gusrc=rss&feed=worldnews
ahem....
Bernard, if we're there for the oil, why haven't we taken it? Petrol is at record prices here as well.
Who says they wouldnt be even higher if we hadnt invaded?
The war for oil is just a canard.
no it isnt. they have the 2nd largest oil reserves on the planet. and its not any old mud either. its arabian sweet light. its also not about immediate access either. it should also be seen as an investment for the future. demand for oil is ballooning, therefore control of untapped supplies is key to maintaining any position of power on the planet. its just a reason for being there. its the only reason.
as for rumsfeld, typical dross well covered above. i especially liked his position on poverty. apparently the modern economic system doesnt create poverty, when it can be shown that in order for it to function as it does true poverty for many is absolutely guarunteed. such as the dumping of commodities onto local markets destrying communities all across the world. or turfing people of their own land to feed the wider economy (read big investors). All these people who lived decent lives before then end up in city slums around the world looking for work just to survive. oddly enough the work is there waiting for them. making myriad consumer goods for pittance. and thats a mere snapshot of the havoc and destruction the modern global wreaks on the people of the world. hell its happening here in the west too.
i was going to post that link too RS. keep it up.