CATHOLIC GUILT
Thursday, November 26, 2009 at 09:10AM Sexual abuse by Roman Catholic priests in Ireland has been covered up for decades and all in the name of defending the Church.
Four Archbishops, including Cardinal Desmond Connell, will be named over their mishandling of hundreds of allegations, including not reporting crimes to the police. The senior clerics' motive was to protect the church above defenceless children, the report will find.
That is not an acceptable motive in a civilised society and these clerics should be prosecuted as appropriate. I wonder what those in government knew about these abuses? Also, what IS IT that makes Priests all too likely to be caught up in these disgusting crimes?
I think it is the fact that the RC Church forbids them to marry. That seems peculiar to me and enforced celibacy seems to contort otherwise normal sexual desires. I am sure there are many decent priests who seek to provide a genuine ministry but in the Republic of Ireland this latest shocking report will simply further marginalise religion and that is, in my view, a bad thing.
Ireland, Roman Catholic Church 
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Reader Comments (31)
Kincora was hardly the fault of priestly celibacy. I think celibacy is totally irrelevant. This is sexual deviancy, and these people will seek to satisfy their deviance out side of marriage and away from scrutiny.
I wonder what those in government knew about these abuses
I wonder what they knew about Kincora, a lot I imagine in a 'civilised' society. I think it may be down to power and the abuse of power and position, which says imv that celibacy doesn't rate very high as a factor.
Protecting their institution, whether the church or in politics or anywhere else is the same as protecting themselves. They should all be rooted out and held up to public scrutiny, and for this crime perhaps death as a punishment is needed. It's becoming much too prevalient everywhere.
"I think it is the fact that the RC Church forbids them to marry. That seems peculiar to me and enforced celibacy seems to contort otherwise normal sexual desires."
There were about 60 alledged cases a year. Of those 60 cases the majority weren't sexual. Those 60 cases included Physical Abuse, Emotional Abuse, Neglect and Sexual Abuse. I don't have the exact figures as to how many of them were sexual but sexual abuse was in the minority of the cases. Personally, I would like to see the statistics of levels of sexual abuse in other institutions involving children. I would imagine that in non-celibate, even secular institutions that a similar level of abuse exists. The major difference between the Church and those other organisations wasn't that it was prevalent in the Catholic Church but that that the Church covered it up and it all came out in a very short space of time.
The Catholic Church asks its Priests, David, to take many vows, some of which contravene normal desire. The Priests take vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience. Surely turning away from material goods contravene a normal desire, as well?
I have long been disgusted with the Catholic church and the way in which it actively covered up abuse. From my early teens I witnessed this cover up occurring and it was my personal catalyst for abandoning this church and questioning the beliefs that I had been indoctrinated with as a child.
Ive seen my own parents move away from the church as a result of this abuse and its cover up, where once they were avid followers. They have now found their own relationship with god, where the organised church doesn't at all play as much of a role.
The state has to hold its head in shame as well, not just for its collusion, but also in its failure to make the institutions adequately account for the abuse AND for the cover up. The state should have been prosecuting the abusers and those that covered up. But they havent done this adequately. They should also be forcing the institutions that engaged in cover up, to pay adequate compensation, instead of letting them off with the paltry amounts paid.
Shame on the institutions, shame on the government, and shame on the people for letting it happen and not acting against it.
"They should also be forcing the institutions that engaged in cover up, to pay adequate compensation, instead of letting them off with the paltry amounts paid."
I disagree completely. I hate how this has all become about compensation. Put those who abused people in gaol, put those who covered it up in gaol but end this ridicolous money grab by certain individuals. Surely they should just be happy that they perpetratours are punished.
Seamus
Of course the abusers should go to jail but their crimes were facilitated by institutional cover-up therefore it is right and proper that the institutions should pay.
In far too many cases what should have been a community failed in its most basic duty of care to those who were the most powerless people in our society. Priests and Brothers were neither controlled nor supervised and protecting the institution became more important than anything else.
If a child in confession said he stole sixpence then he would be told that it was necessary to pay it back to get forgiveness. All the tainted institutions, like the Christian Brothers should surrender their assets to the victims and dissolve their orders in my view.
I would have few issues with a role for married clergy but I don't believe that has anything to do with the problem. Abusers were abusers before they became Priests in my opinion and took advantage of a situation just like they do in other institutions. There have been scandals in Irish swimming coaching too.
Accountability, transparency and supervision are core responsibilities of any organisation where power is exercised.
I disagree completely. I hate how this has all become about compensation. Put those who abused people in gaol, put those who covered it up in gaol but end this ridicolous money grab by certain individuals. Surely they should just be happy that they perpetratours are punished.
Seamus.. open your eyes man. The cover up was an institutional cover up. It wasnt a few rouge priests covering up. It was a cover up from the top levels down. It was an agreed policy. The institution itself is at fault. When I say compensation, I dont necessarily mean that people queue up to get handouts. There are other ways in which they can compensate, financial contributions to setting up centres to help survivors of abuse for example. Paying for qualified professionals to help people. Funding community centres etc.
Kloot
If people have been wronged, especially when that wrong cannot be totally wiped out, should be financially compensated as well.
Damage from such as this can dramatically affect future financial viability and can also have additional costs. Money can afford people space and freedom, which can be what they need to give them the best chance to deal with what was done to them.
Money does not make everything all right but not having money doesn't either.
The cover up was an institutional cover up.
And it was an institutional cover up in America, too.
Their favorite game was " move the molester " - when a priest had acted badly, they'd move him to another parish across the country. Some were moved from East Coast parishes to Spanish speaking parishes in places like Arizona or New Mexico, foisted upon totally unsuspecting congregations.
One of the practiotioners of this game was Cardinal Law of Boston, who now has a high position in Rome.
If people have been wronged, especially when that wrong cannot be totally wiped out, should be financially compensated as well.
I do agree that some level of compensation should be given to the individual, both to cover the cost of any treatment they may be receiving and for as compensation for the abuse itself, however a problem with the current system in operation is that an accusation seems to be enough to get compensation. Its a very very awkward situation. How does one prove an individual was not abused without a confrontational inquisition.
There are many victims here, including the many honest believers, and the huge majority of clergy who give their lives to serve God and man and who have been unfairly tarred with this brush.
Cardinal Law and other senior types here and there should be in a maximum security prison for a hundred years for what they did.
Kloot
"I do agree that some level of compensation should be given to the individual, both to cover the cost of any treatment they may be receiving and for as compensation for the abuse itself, however a problem with the current system in operation is that an accusation seems to be enough to get compensation. Its a very very awkward situation. How does one prove an individual was not abused without a confrontational inquisition."
I don't disagree that it is a difficult subject. I am just challanging the notion that there is something worng with direct financial compensatiion. Victims are all to often carrying enough guilt as it is without being made feel bad about that as well. I think that there is a place for directfinancial compensation as well as services offered.
Were on the same page so Aileen. :) hope alls well.
The problem is that every cent of compensation comes from funds that would otherwise have been used to fund essential services . It is a zero sum game.
You pretty much cannot buy insurance for sexual abuse any more, so all sums paid out comes form the general funds.
In the US, a big chunk of the direct payments would go to the plaintiff's lawyer - one third or more.
In the US, a big chunk of the direct payments would go to the plaintiff's lawyer - one third or more
They tried to cut that part out with the tribunal that was setup in the ROI, ie they tried to avoid the large lawyer fees.
Kloot
"Were on the same page so Aileen. :) hope alls well"
We are so :o) (I love your use of "so". It reminds me of some of the family :o)
Things are fine thanks and actually quite a lot invoved with lawers myself at the moment
and hopefully all is well with you
Things are fine thanks and actually quite a lot invoved with lawers myself at the moment
and hopefully all is well with you
Im grand Aileen, thanks. Good to here things are well with you..hope you are giving them lawyers what for :)
Some thoughts:
I don't believe priests should be celibate, it is as unnecessary as it is unnatural. As a Catholic I advocate for a change in that requirement. However, I think studies have shown that there isn't a higher incidence ofthis abuse bCatholic Priests than there is in other segments of the population. I think our Church, however, has done as much harm in covering it up as the actual abuse itself.
On compensation, let me say that it the best way to get the Church's attention and to punish it. As for the lawyers, some work pro bono, but most charge for their services. One of the ways the system produces lawyers with sufficient ability and desire to prevail is by the financial reward at the end. Believe me the Church isn't taking a St. Francis of Assisi approach to defending these cases and has great resources to fight in Court, and you need the type of lawyer driven to win to fight them. I couldn't possibly charge a fee for such a cause, but I also haven't devoted years of my life to the issue. And I doubt many reading these words could tell me how many years of free service they or their profession has devoted to helping these victims.
At the end of the day since we can not restore the victims innocence, loss of faith or years of psychological issues and anguish, the only means of compensation is financial. Really, it is up to them to decide if they want it.
"At the end of the day since we can not restore the victims innocence, loss of faith or years of psychological issues and anguish, the only means of compensation is financial. Really, it is up to them to decide if they want it."
See I have a problem with financial compensation. Everything in society today is about financial compensation. Its the principle reason we have ambulance chasers. If you remove the financial incentive then only the true victims will come forward and the real abusers can be brought to justice.
How would these people get the compensation if the Church didn't have any money, by the way?
I was raised a catholic, and as a result am now an atheist,.......phew!!!
I don't let the sins of men get in the way of my love for Christ or His church. To those who've broken the law I say "get behind me you Satan".
I don't think celibacy has much to do with it.
I don't let the sins of men get in the way of my love for Christ or His church. To those who've broken the law I say "get behind me you Satan".
What about the sins of the Church as opposed to the sins of individuals. The abuse crime stands on its own, however, the cover-up is in itself a crime of massive proportions. The church has the records where priests were identified as abusers, they also have the records of moving these priests around from parish to parish. The Church is fully complicit in this.
Kloot, definately. Some men in the Church high up have done illegal and sinful things. The Church must answer to Caeser and we Catholics are paying through the nose for it. My point is that I'm not going to let it effect my faith. The Lord warned us about wolves in sheep's clothing.
My point is that I'm not going to let it effect my faith. The Lord warned us about wolves in sheep's clothing.
Thats fair enough Charles. It shouldnt at all affect your faith in God. The effect that the reporting of this abuse is having though is to affect peoples faith in the church, at least in the current institution. People no longer trust the church with their children, not just because they are afraid their child may be abused, but also, they do not have the trust in the church to protect their child nor to react in the proper fashion were their child abused.
The church should be, and there are signs of this (in small ways at lower levels), taking the opportunity to perform a self inspection. They need to ask themselves how this could have happened, how can it be resolved, and how can it go forward. Unfortunately, is the reality not, that those that covered up are still in their positions of power. Therefore, it is likely that no major change will occur.
kloot
People no longer trust the church with their children, not just because they are afraid their child may be abused, but also, they do not have the trust in the church to protect their child nor to react in the proper fashion were their child abused.
That's right. The Church shouldn't have that much to do with children anyway. An adult faith often means unlearning the simplistic version you got as a child.
The Church is made up of sinners,
The Protestants might say sinners saved by grace,
The Catholics would say the Priest has the authority to forgive sins and pronounce penitence.
Another monotheistic faith I dare not mention, hope that the "auditing of the books" puts you in the black!
The real sin is as Mahons mentions,
"I think our Church, however, has done as much harm in covering it up as the actual abuse itself."
There is no evidence that the early fathers of the Church were celibate, and I would argue that the most balanced man has a good woman to love and be loved by.
Children incidentally, make him even more balanced...(and frazzled).
Personally I can find no evidence for the power structures we see today in the New Testament.
They are associated with the temporal, not the spiritual world.
I agree with David Vance that whenever the Church lets itself down, we are all the poorer.
The Diocese of Dallas has a zero tolerance policy. One pastor lost his parish for not being 100% in having all personell around children being cleared. No child is allowed to even go to the loo alone during Mass without their parent. But as you and Phantom have said, what bishop or cardinal has lost his post over this?
Henry, I must disagree re children. The Lord himself said "let the little children come to me." And also the penalty for harming one of them the millstone right round the neck. We must teach our kids to love and serve the Lord and one another.
This is how the Vatican dealt with enquires from the commission into the abuse...Irish Times
That is pretty disgusting. It shows a lack of concern at the highest levels in the Church. These are children and the church does not give a damn it would appear.
But Kloot, the end of the article states the Vatican's reasoning.
"As for the overall findings of the report, Fr Lombardi was reluctant to add any further comment. “In all cases like this, it is not appropriate for Rome to comment, rather that is for the local bishop. In the case of Dublin, we have an excellent Archbishop and he knows what has to be said.”
As for the overall findings of the report, Fr Lombardi was reluctant to add any further comment. “In all cases like this, it is not appropriate for Rome to comment, rather that is for the local bishop. In the case of Dublin, we have an excellent Archbishop and he knows what has to be said.
Hmmm.. yeah, but there had to have been a reason behind their request being sent to the Vatican. I see no reason why Rome couldnt reply to a direct request. But anyway...
Im in half minds as to whether to read the report released today in full. It can only be a depressing read. Im really hopeful that this report will result in an overhaul of the Church institution in Ireland, but time will tell.
Anyway, on a lighter note, off with you and enjoy thanksgiving today. :)
Indeed Kloot! Off to visit Mom in the nursing home and maybe a little food with alot of thanks!