Friday
07Nov
DISHONOURING THE FALLEN..
Friday, November 7, 2008 at 06:45PM 
I read that Belfast's Lord Mayor - Sinn Fein councillor Tom Hartley, has announced that he will NOT be taking part in the city’s Remembrance Day commemorations this weekend. Hartley will be away in the Republic on a series of engagements and so unable to show his respects to the fallen.
I have a few things to say.
1. It shows just how small-minded and stuck in the past republicans are. Let the world see them in their true colours.
2. If this is how he feels, I am delighted he is absent! After all, our brave military men and women gave their lives to protect us from fascist scum like the IRA and their proxies. His presence would pollute the occasion.
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Reader Comments (165)
Were you delighted when Alex Maskey laid a wreath in memory of the solders who died in WW1?
Or are you small minded?
Well said, David.
Giving uphiding guns is not reconciliation. If the Mayor of Belfast cannot bring himself to show simple respect, none of them will.David is it not rather small-minded of you to not recognise the pain inflicted on Ireland by your beloved british forces (centuries of it)? Or is all the movement expected from republicans?
Scumbag Maskey laid a 'Laurel wreath' not a POPPY WREATH, so I never considered it anything other than a token gesture. Laurel Wreaths are given to F1 racing drivers when the win a race, not left in memory of soldiers who have made the supreme sacrifice.
Mr M,
Let's see.
I am not a member of an organisation that has murdered thousands of British citizens. I am not a supporter of IRISH neo-fascism in the form of the IRA. I am not an advocate of Irish terrorism. I wear MY poppy with pride. Sinn Fein scum like Maskey are unfit to be present at ANY event, in my view, that commemorates the valiant British war-dead. Its like Nazis attending the cenotaph.
The small-minded are those like Hartley who lust after the trappings of office that comes from holding political office in a major British city and they scuttle off, like cockroaches, to the Republic when called upon to carry out the functions of the office.
Hope that clarifies my position.
RS - When you take the myth, lies, embellishments and propaganda out of the Republican / Nationalist views on British Rule, you very soon come to the conclusion that they didn't know when they were well off. That's why Roman Catholics came in droves from the Republic and why year on year from partition, the RC population increased in Northern Ireland. That haven of virtue, the Republic of Ireland, drove the Protestant population down to around 8% now....decreasing year after year during the corresponding period.
Any comment Pete about when Alex Maskey (who was Sinn Féin mayor of Belfast at the time) laid a wreath in memory of the solders who died in WW1?
Straight answer from either of you will do, and then perhaps we'll see if there's any pleasing the two of you.
The small mindedness is not recognising the many brave young Irish of all backgrounds men who joined the British forces to fight for democracy rather than the cowards who rewrite history to excuse the murder women and children while trying to destroy democracy.
'Sinn Fein scum like Maskey are unfit to be present at ANY event, in my view, that commemorates the valiant British war-dead. Its like Nazis attending the cenotaph.'
So what are you crying about a Sinn Fein mayor not attending for?
Also it funny you use the Nazi comparison. Lets see....Bullying weaker nations, check. Invading other peoples lands, check. Treating other people as inferior, check. Genocide, check. Now tell me (if your mature enough), was this the IRA or British crown forces?
Sinn Fein scum like Maskey are unfit to be present at ANY event, in my view, that commemorates the valiant British war-dead. Its like Nazis attending the cenotaph.
What's your problem then?.
He can stay away thanks to those who died defending freedom.
Had the Nazis won, he at the age of 18 like all other able bodied men would have been sent to Europe to work in a factory or other designated "employment". While Sinn Fein /IRA collaborated with Fascists, the 8th Irish battalion of the Kings Liverpool Regiment were taking part in the Normandy landings at Juno Beach on the 6th June 1944. Veterans of the Liverpool Irish returned in 1984 to see a memorial to them unveiled by the Mayor of Greye-sur-Mer.
RS,
I guess Mary McAleese and Alex Reid have the monopoly on the Nazi jibe? Try harder if you want to mix it with me.
'When you take the myth, lies, embellishments and propaganda out of the Republican / Nationalist views on British Rule'
William i suggest you repeat this looking in the mirror and replace the words republican and nationalist with unionist. Is it any wonder why unionism is a lughing stock on the world stage.
Mix it with you David? What are we 14? I asked you a question, as did others and you plainly avoid and ignore. That is probably all the reply we could have expected.
RS,
Learn what a rhetorical embellishment is and then get back to me.
This thread is proof if proof is needed of the sickness that is Unionism. They castigate all Nationalists as terrorists & Nazi's & they can't see past the ends of their own noses - so, so predictable.
David learn when your immaturity is on show.
RS,
Learn when you are a guest.
Mr M,
Love the way you suggest all nationalists are Sinn Fein scum. They are not and you don't get that little trick away here. The Nazis killed British soldiers, the IRA did the same. Same scum.
Hey lets get it straight The IRA is a cult of Death, and Death Worship, and that's why nothing can be built around it that will live,
When they finally murdered paul quinn they completed their "slaughter of the innocents",
I agree with your post David Vance.
Je me souviens.
Percy, don't I owe you something?
Phantom,
Nicely said. And there will be many Roman Catholic people here in Northern Ireland who feel likewise. So many good people, and then we have some of the miscreants above. C'est la vie.
'The Nazis killed British soldiers, the IRA did the same. Same scum.'
Loyalists killed irish citizens, british crown forces did the same, ergo.....
hi phantom,
indeed gracious of you. type my email addy, which you have into paypal and you'll be able to send. Thanks.
David, I've seen the error of my ways, and turn my back fully on the criminal murderers who are unable to repent, instead go clubbing in barns in Oram! Utter depraved scum!
Ireland wasn't partitioned until after WW1 so this was only symbolism on Sinn Fein's part. Why did they not remember the fallen of WW2. Many Irishmen fought and died here also.
Decent Irish fought against the Nazis,,,,but republican scum prefer to ignore that. Too busy thinking up ways to kill British soldiers, innocent men women and children. Just like the Nazis did. Unfit to wear a poppy, unfit to hold any political office.
Do we have to sectarianise everything?
Tell me David what were the irish who wished for freedom/home rule? Were they scum or were they decent?
percy
I may have misplaced it
If you have mine, could you please restate your e-mail address and I will take care of that right now ( Otherwise, can you ask David to forward it to me? )
Was that £20?
--Do we have to sectarianise everything?--
No, we most certainly do not. An eloquent question though.
I'm glad Hartley won't be there. It would have dishonoured the occasion.
phantom,
just sent an email to your gmail a/c £20 yes.
I spent it already on a 1/2 bottle moet/chandon champagnes
RS
apart from the back and forth with DV, do you not see why its impossible to build anything like a united ireland around visiting gravesides of fallen volunteers which is anathema to unionists.
How can a CULT of DEATH becomes a LIVING BREATHING UNITY of the Orange and Green?
Percy I refer you back to my first post on this thread.
RS
All the movement is expected from Republicans, its we who want change, and so we have to change !!!!!!!
Percy...point...proverbial mile.
RS
I'll give you a clue.
When King Henry II came to his senses about the murdered thomas a beckett who became a saint: Henry's Penance - Henry, full of remorse, did penance imposed by the pope. He walked to Canterbury Cathedral in sack cloth and ashes and allowed himself to be flogged by the monks there.
Picture Gerry Adams doing the same from Derry to Belfast
Percy
On the way via paypal. You're a good sport, and I do intend to make it back some day!!
First time I have wired non-US funds. Pretty neat that you can do that easily. It used to be so hard.
phantom
they took 98p off the barstewards ( 19:02 ) from 29.16USD
But I'm happy to call it square. ok?
Its going straight to paddypower anyway ( bookies );-)
RS
Your whole game plan shows you've missed the point by more than a proverbial mile, back and forth, blame, counter- blame is not going to deliver for republicans.
Someone has to sit on the potty first.
All will then fall into place.
To date there is none with that courage or humility.
So just zero-sum sectarian carve-up with no nope..
and so its goes on and one and on.
and NI remains part of the UK.
Keep it simple dude, think potty's and poo-poos.
( what's the saying:
If you won't shit, get off the pot )
Be back later.
Yet again you seem to have missed it. I suggest there may be a few others who would need to walk alot longer.
>>Scum like Maskey are unfit to be present at ANY event, in my view, that commemorates the valiant British war-dead..<<
Damned if they do.
>>The small-minded are those like Hartley who lust after the trappings of office .. and they scuttle off, like cockroaches<<
Damned if they don't.
"Unfit to wear a poppy, unfit to hold any political office."
Sinn Féin received more votes in Belfast than anyother party in the council elections and they are the ones that you deem aren't fit to hold Political Office? Some democrat you turned out to be David.
In terms of the thread, Tom Hartley is an Irishman. Why should he commemorate those who died for Britain? You can have respect for people who died without honouring them. I respect those who gave their lives for Britain, for France, for Germany, for the United States, for the Soviet Union, but I will only honour those who gave their lives for Ireland. Tom Hartley is an Irishman so he should only honour those who gave their lives for Ireland, not for Britain.
Noel
Good post.
RS
I agree, but someone has to take the first step.
If anything is to be learnt by the US election, its that those that seek change take the first step..
"In terms of the thread, Tom Hartley is an Irishman. Why should he commemorate those who died for Britain?"
Many British, German, French, Jewish, Russian, Canadian, American, Nepalese, etc. gave their lives for Ireland. I doubt it would be the same place if Hitler got his way. Since many Republicans lit fires to guide Nazi bombers to Belfast and other such help afforded to Hitler's hordes, it is better that he wasn't around.
"Many British, German, French, Jewish, Russian, Canadian, American, Nepalese, etc. gave their lives for Ireland."
No they didn't. They did join up thinking "better help the Paddies". They fought for their own countries, not for Ireland. The end result might have benefited Ireland but that doesn't mean that those who fought it had Ireland's interests at heart.
"Since many Republicans lit fires to guide Nazi bombers to Belfast and other such help afforded to Hitler's hordes, it is better that he wasn't around."
I do believe the term is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". At the time of the Belfast Blitz not many people, anywhere in the world knew the horrors of Hitler's Germany. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Remember that when Republicans did this the Holocaust hadn't even happened and the other atrocities commited by the Reich were not common knowledge. The Germans were fighting the British, the IRA were fighting the British so they considered themselves Allies as they had a common enemy.
Just remember that it was the IRA that led the way fighting Facism in Spain.
>>Since many Republicans lit fires to guide Nazi bombers to Belfast<<
There is no historical report of this ever happening. In fact, the leading historicans of the period say that there was no such signalling.
What source - apart from your prejudices - are you using, Jonathan?
Wow, so many questions to answer and so many opinions to counterpoint.
This is going to take a while to compose and it’ll be lengthy. It’ll probably leave me drained also so please excuse me if I don’t counter-argue any of your views, which may oppose my contribution, tonight. We’ll try to continue tomorrow.
“If the Mayor of Belfast cannot bring himself to show simple respect, none of them will.”
Well Pete, IMHO a SF mayor of Belfast already has shown respect to the war dead, albeit I assume not in the manner which you would prefer, by laying a laurel wreath in memory of ALL the war dead irrespective of uniform or nationality.
IMO the SS were an elitist rabble brainwashed by the indoctrination of their political masters and they were guilty of some of the most heinous crimes of genocide in the 20th C but is it fair to transfer that stigma to the Whermaccht who were, by and large, either professional soldiers or conscripted teenagers?
In short, all these people have families. Should the children be punished for the crimes of their fathers and be excluded from remembrance?
In so far as I know, the Poppy wreath is only in remembrance of British and Commonwealth soldiers. Why should an Irish Republican, or anyone else, be forced to lay a wreath which excludes the American soldiers, [which arguably won WWII?]
My personal opinion is that WWI was a waste of gullible young life in an imperial land grab but I have nothing bur respect for soldiers, of whatever uniform, that fought against the greatest evil known to man in the 20th C in WWII. I, as an Irishman, have absolutely no qualms with remembering their sacrifice in the fight against fascism but I won’t do it to the exclusion of the Americans, the French, Polish, resistance etc which, for me, the Poppy represents.
The manner in which SOME of the Unionist community wear their poppy in the North of Ireland is perceived as in-your-face superiority but that’s another debate.
Regarding the IRA supporting the Nazis in WWII. How many of the Unionist, [or nationalist], community have explored the context of this?
It’s true that Sean Russell,[ the IRA COS], had dealings with Nazi Germany but Russell died in 1940, a full three years before the horrors of the Nazi “final solution” became known. To speculate that Russell and the IRA were guilty, supportive or compliant in this is akin to suggesting that Lord Londonderry, cousin of Winston Churchill, was guilty of the same.
Having said that Dev’s expression of condolence on Hitler’s death was unforgivable
Controversial stuff I know.
I’m banjaxed after writing it so I’ll try to continue tomorrow.
Noel, it wasn't really signaling. They burned all the Gas Masks issued to them by the Government and refused to obey blackout regulations.
>>They burned all the Gas Masks issued to them by the Government <<
Perhaps, but did they go up to the top of Cave Hill to burn them in the middle of the night just as the German bombers were approaching?
Guys, your fellow countrymen are currently fighting and dying in Afghanistan. Put aside the old fights and at least honor these people who willingly serve your country with honor and valor. They've recently died, lost limbs and suffered immense hardships serving you and your country.
Let the old crap go for just a moment and honor these people.