The Chappaquidick incident should of course be in any lifestory about him and points to the serious flaw in his character. The incident is taking its place in the profiles of him now here in the U.S., and rightly so. I suspect he really didn't have any chance of rescuing her, but did try to cover up his involvement in the incident and got only a slap on the wrist.

I recall Mary Jo's father said the only good that came from his daughter's death was it kept Ted from becoming President.

I didn't agree with many of his politics either, but he was considered an able legislator, and was admired by colleagues on both sides of the aisle. I think his speech at his brother RFK's funerals was one of the best and his 1980 speech to the Democratic convention was excellent. But each speech also underlined a wasted talent. As the last of the Kennedy brothers his passing when it comes will have a sense of loss even beyond his own demise.

I just don't care. He's an old man who's led a full life. He's been very influential in our nation, held power as few ever do, never wanted for anything, raised a family.

He has a terrible illness that I wouldn't wish on anyone, but I have no personal feelings about it.

It's fair comment to discuss Mary Jo Kopechne. That was an awful incident. And Ted Kennedy was entirely responsible for what really wasn't an accident- a)if you get behind the wheel of a vehicle while drunk, it's not an act of fate if you subsequently hit something or drive into the water and b) he saved his own skin, but sure didn't seem to have made any effort on behalf of Mary Jo.

He was never punished for this, which is an injustice.Wouldn't have happened had his surname been any other but "Kennedy".

---

That said, his colleagues in political life, Republicans just as much as Democrats, speak to his personal decency in his dealings with them. That counts for a great deal.

I too, disagree with many of his views. But today, that's just not important.

I hope that he makes a full recovery so that ten years from now we can be fighting about what he says.

---

I mentioned US "conservative" radio host Michael Savage recently. Yesterday, he actually played songs by the Dead Kennedys "music" group.

There was a gloating piece where the song "California Uber Alles" was played, into which Arnold Schwartzenegger's line "It is not a tumor" was added.

Vile, sickening, stuff.

his list of personal foibles is only topped by his profesional ones. Teddy was one of the chief architechs to gutting the Aid to the southvietnamese after we pulled out His destruction of that assistance added to the millions that were massacred

I'm guessing Troll won't be shedding tears at the funeral. :-)

>>I'm guessing Troll won't be shedding tears at the funeral. <<

But at least John McCain will. He was already shedding tears today just at the news of Kennedy's illness. He also said.

"I have described Ted Kennedy as the last lion in the Senate. And I have held that view because he remains the single most effective member of the Senate,"

Shown here on CNN.

(click on the wee pic of McCain in the left column - 3rd from top - to get the interview)

What an awful story and an awful man. How did he remain in politics?

Troll posted:

his list of personal foibles is only topped by his profesional ones...

Yeah, and the same could be said of Dubya, with spades. His post 9/11 neo-con idea of "eradicating evil from the world" by exporting US style democracy to Iraq and elsewhere (Iran next?) is proving more disastrous by the day.

McCain was crying because he will never attain the tribute accorded a Kennedy.

Sen. Kennedy is one of the last public faces of American (semi) old money, political aristocracy. McCain is a gigolo bourgeois beer prince who went to war. Big whoop.

yes Peter millions of muslims are free of tyranny and not another attack in the US,,, what can you say to such an unmittigated failure?

McCain wasn't that when he went to war. he is a genuine American hero, whatever you make of his politics.

What can I say to unmitigated failure - Thank God for term limits.

McCain is a gigolo bourgeois beer prince who went to war. Big whoop.

Despicable comment. If this is typical of how the American right hates McCain, then Obama has a chance in November.

Troll

Millions of muslims have died and neither Iraq nor Afghanistan are or will be democracies. When Al Sadr decides that politics isn't getting him what he wants, Iraq will be plunged into real civil war which will be a total bloodbath.

What an awful story and an awful man. How did he remain in politics?...because Alison he is Irish and a Kennedy. A hell of a lot of Americans funded the IRA and this only stopped when suddenly they realised what terrorism meant!

BTW the prognosis for what he has got ... a malignant tumor means he will be dead before next summer. I would like to say god rest his soul but I am not that hypocritical.

Maggie - Being one of the Kennedys surely allowed him to remain in politics after the scandal. However, he wasn't a pro-IRA guy and snubbed Gerry Adams as recently as 2005 for the activity of the post-process IRA - something many other politicians have not done.

I don't understand the fascination with the Kennedy's. And I mean ANY of them.

"A hell of a lot of Americans funded the IRA and this only stopped when suddenly they realised what terrorism meant!"

What has that got to do with Ted Kennedy?

The man is a political giant. His actions at Chappaquidick cast a shadow over his life though.

"this only stopped when suddenly they realised what terrorism meant!"

That's actually a lie. The well had gone very dry before 9/11, esp. after Omagh, when the Irish people demanded an end to all terrorism and their supporters in America, almost to a man/woman very strongly backed that position.

Do a little research before you make comments like that.

It is not a "lie". And do your own research.

You refusing to believe that pov and telling Maggie to effectively shut up is not a counter argument to the sentiment she expressed.

We watched as you welcomed Gerry and co in NYC as a hero for years on our news services. Not to mention that meddling twerp Clinton who helped build the peace process into the joke that resulted.

I'm often surprised at the US bile directed at the UK for all its security services failings to with islamic terrorism when up to the late 90s they were otherwise 'preoccupied' as you have just explained.

So what if the fund dried up literally shortly before 9/11 when their barbaric campaign became too unpalatable for you.

Understand this. We do not all believe you are all whiter than white and we do feel that terrorism only became an ugly word your way after 9/11. And with good enough reason.

It is not a "lie" to state that point of view so don't lecture people Phantom. You have hardly dispproved her point with your response!

How on earth can someone be a political giant when they are weasly little cowards and use their status to avoid or even accept the consequences of their actions? He was a dirty cowardly drunk driver whi left someone to die. About as far removed from "political giant" as it is possible to be.

What a great family. Teddy leaves an innocent woman to drown in the waters off Martha's Vineyard (cue Jaws), Jack chums up with the Chicago Mob to bolster his presidential vote, and Bobby conspired in the murder of Marilyn Monroe.

Two dead; one to go. Tough!!!

"How on earth can someone be a political giant when they are weasly little cowards and use their status to avoid or even accept the consequences of their actions?"

Alison,

A person can quite easily be both.

No Reg. You cannot claim someone as a political giant when they have done that.

Alison

Her sentiment here is bullshit and a complete lie and a clumsy rewriting of very recent history.

And you unintentionally back me up with your own words --So what if the fund dried up literally shortly before 9/11 when their barbaric campaign became too unpalatable for you--the prolonged campaign had become unacceptable to most, the Omagh atrocity being the last straw. And that is all that I said.(And it wasn't just that the funds had dried up. There was great pressure from Irish America ( Rep. King, others ) on behalf of a permanent cessasion of all "armed conflict"

I'll stay away for the time being from your bitter " We do not all believe you are all whiter than white " comment- who's you? The Americans? The Irish Americans? Those who write here?....as it sounds like the kind of thing meant to bring forth another shoutfest rather than a discussion.

But on the peace process? I think it has been a net good, with all its imperfections. And I think that the big majority there agree with me, not you.

"No Reg. You cannot claim someone as a political giant when they have done that."

I can and do.

You can claim someone was politically smart but not a giant. How can you claim a drunk driver who left a woman to die as a giant. Politics is OF the people. He can no more represent as someone great when he is responsible of a crime and uses his status to avoid being responsible.

Alison

Its not for you to say who is a giant in another country's politics. His political contemporaries, all of them, say that he is. The final verdict will be from historians in the coming decades. I suspect that they will agree with McCain, Bush, and other Republicans and Democrats who have said that Kennedy is indeed a political giant.

"How can you claim a drunk driver who left a woman to die as a giant."

A POLITICAL giant. I don't think we disagree on how Chappaquidick casts a shadow over his character as a MAN.

Reg

Absolutely correct.

It's a joke that this is even a debate here.

Bitterness was all over your initial comment like a rash Phantom so you get a response in kind.

Her sentiment is shared by a good many and has been expressed a few times in the press. Not that it needs to be.

It wasn't until 2005 that senior Irish-American senators demanded that the IRA disband.

That reversal was largely due to 9/11, obvious criminal activity by the IRA and an unrelenting campaign mounted by the McCartney sisters.

Yes a POLITICAL giant. You cannot claim he was or is.

Unless he stepped DOWN from politics following that appauling incident. He did not where most politicos would have.

This isn't a quick shag in the office with some intern we are talking about as a failing or blot on his character!

A US President was held under greater POLITICAL scrutiny for less.

"Yes a POLITICAL giant. You cannot claim he was or is."

Eh? I just did!

Ohhh I see. You don't really mean he is politcally great or a 'giant'. In which case I'll play too. He is a politically giant TURD.

"Its not for you to say who is a giant in another country's politics"

LOL!

"And I think that the big majority there agree with me, not you."

Comes across like a kid sticking his tongue out.

Here Phantom. Some more "bullshit" and "rewriting" for you. From the hands of the decidedly pro Irish nationalist Guardian newspaper no less.

Alan Ruddock The Observer, Sunday October 28 2001

"Richard Haass was preparing himself for an important meeting. It was the morning of 11 September and the straight-talking US special envoy to Dublin was about to come face to face with Gerry Adams, the leader of Sinn Fein. Haass was going to speak his mind.
A deal was on the table that could finally bring to an end more than 30 years of terrorism in Northern Ireland. Haass wanted to push Adams into persuading the IRA to decommission its arms. If he had to get angry, then so be it.

After a few minutes of talking about 'inching forward' the peace process, Haass finally snapped. 'If any American, service personnel or civilian, is killed in Colombia by the technology the IRA supplied then you can fuck off,' he shouted, finger jabbing towards Adams' chest. 'Don't tell me you know nothing about what's going on there, we know everything about it.'

Haass, eyes blazing, was referring to events a month earlier when three Irishmen, including two IRA veterans were arrested at Bogotá airport. They were returning from a trip to Farcland, a Marxist ruritania in Colombia run by the anti-government Revolutionary Armed Forces.

James Monaghan and Martin McAuley, two IRA engineers, were swapping mortar bomb technology with the Farc guerrillas. Farc is the sworn enemy of America and controls the land used to cultivate and export cocaine to the West. Haass was furious.

The discovery of the trip was the lever America needed to push Adams towards last week's historic announcement that the IRA had agreed to decommission some of its weapons, a move that was sealed yesterday by David Trimble's decision to return to government as Northern Ireland's First Minister. A few hours later, the first of four hijacked planes flew into the World Trade Centre. Sinn Fein knew they were on an impossible wicket

The Farc debacle and 11 September completely changed the landscape. Adams' principal concern remained the maintenance of warm relations with the American administration and the preservation of millions of dollars from rich, conservative Irish-Americans"

Alison

You're all over the place today. Not sure what that last FARC post is supposed to prove about fund-raising and political support in America pre 9/11, but I'll imagine there's a point in there somewhere.

--
Big majorities supported the Good Friday Agreement. It was in all the papers.

If you have reason to believe that this support has waned, present your evidence.

Sheesh. Like shooting fish in a barrel, is arguing with this one.

Yeah that's right avoid the pertinent bits as it suits. Stick to your annoyed little LIAR claims Phantom. Avoid other opinion and continue sticking your tongue out. Makes you look really... together.

I'm talking about Maggies comment you got so uptight about.

Shoehorn in the GFA for good measure though. 'Wonderful' stuff that it was. Here is a whole blog dedicated to saying it isnt but let's ignore that opinion too. The GFA kicks ASS eh Phantom.

Blind leading the blind today between you and Reg.

Alison

The pertinent bits are as per Maggie's comment which. as said before, were either completely misinformed or a lie.( By your own words you yourself seem to contradict them )

I care not to discuss the IRA's misdeeds here --I have criticized them endlessly here and elsewhere --or the involvement with the narcoterrorist FARC--ditto.

Stay focused, please.

"Ohhh I see. You don't really mean he is politcally great or a 'giant'. In which case I'll play too. He is a politically giant TURD."

Sorry Alison, I don't know what you're on about now.

Let's just recap...

I am of the opinion that Ted Kennedy is a political giant. Most political commentators/fellow politicians in the US appear to agree. You clearly do not - as is your right.

We both agree that his actions at Chappaquidick affect our opinion of him as a man.

I don't see what more there is to be said.

I'm off to see Celtic hopefully clinch the league. Slán.

Phantom

Stick to the simple issue. You accused Maggie of an ignorant comment and an outright "LIE" when ive already shown you a newspaper article that outlines a similar opinion in much better detail. It is an opinion but no more a "lie" or ill informed as you simply deciding it isn't and shovelling out your own view.

"11 September completely changed the landscape"

"A few hours later, the first of four hijacked planes flew into the World Trade Centre. Sinn Fein knew they were on an impossible wicket"

You cited Omagh as the final nail when that was clearly not the case. After that your argument went to shit

I observed this news very closely indeed as it was happening. And the fact was that the game was up well before 9/11. Once the WTC was attacked, it was even more clear that there would be no going back, but the die had been cast before. I will do some research tonight my time if I can--but things had changed in a fundamental way before 9/11. Its just untrue to say otherwise.

You may want to wash your mouth out with soap.

Reg - It is your opinion. I thought you were stating it as fact. Probably because you did. In which case you would need to define your idea of greatness as our definitions of political greatness are not the same. I defined mine up there in the thread somewhere. I don't think you have. So i was being sarcastic and assuming you meant giant turd.

People have some weird notions of what makes a man a political giant if a continued career in politics after a drink driving incident cowardice and someones death factor in it.

Phantom - politically yes they had changed prior to 9/11 but at grass roots level eg the millions in US fundraising level it is simply disingenius (and untrue) to suggest 9/11 played no part at all in the change of heart. Certainly no basis for challenging that opinion as an outright lie or which patronisingly requires someone to do "more research". I did for you in half an hour flat and can already point to a piece that outlines the same opinion.

Soap. Nope. You could clean up your argument though.

By all means find some stuff to undo the years of damage welcoming Adams and his cabal for fundraisers did for shaping the opinion you would deny.

My point stands and has not been refuted. You and Maggie have missed the plot completely, but if it makes you happy, please continue with your world view such as it is.

By missing the plot you mean not sharing your opinion? Next time dont suggest people do a little research - especially if what they turn up doesn't back your view. Out of interest i typed 9/11 + IRA into the Times search facility and brought up a slew of articles with opinion asserting the same 'ill informed' "lie".

From a NY Times article dated March 13, 1996...more than two yearsbefore Omagh

"[Irish American] financial support [has existed] for the children of Belfast, for political prisoners and, to an uncertain extent, for the I.R.A. Support has shifted away from Irish Northern Aid, some say, because of perceived ties, denied by the group's leaders, that it is linked to the I.R.A.

Donations are said to be finding their way to the Friends of Sinn Fein, which raises money for lobbying efforts in Washington and the travel expenses of Mr. Adams."

Fund raising was not even the focus of this article, but the decline in "IRA Fundraising" had been well begun then, as Irish America --led by the Irish in Ireland--were in the process of demanding an end to violence.

Fundraising and support for "armed struggle" continued to decline until 1998, and the Omagh atrocity, when it fell off a cliff. The attacks of September 11 made it clear to all that there was no possibility of going back. And that's the truth.

"Reg - It is your opinion. I thought you were stating it as fact. Probably because you did."

Alison,

I said "The man is a political giant. His actions at Chappaquidick cast a shadow over his life though."

That is my opinion (and the opinion of many others). You're not seriously suggesting that I have to write "in my opinion..." every time I offer an opinion?

Ted Kennedy's record as a legislator and his influence as a political operator speak for themselves...in my opinion. ;)

Anywho, nicely done Celtic. 3 in a row!

Reg

Congrats to Celtic.

Just as long as you are not seriously suggesting i have to accept he that he is anywhere close to a political giant! We went back and forth on that a fair bit. I think it's fair to question peoples perception of what constitutes political greatness when he abused that position in the way that he did.

I mean even Clinton didn't get off lightly for simply having his end away.

Phantom

"The attacks of September 11 made it clear to all that there was no possibility of going back"

Yup. Big time. So you agree then.

Maggie or anyone else here is entitled to those views which are not "lies" but our mostly media fed perceptions of what grass roots terrorist supporters were up to over in the US. If anything it serves to demonstrate how baffling Britons find America’s attitude to terrorism in Northern Ireland you having fêted terrorism for years at St Patrick’s Day bashes.

That it is outlined loosely and awkwardly in your own media (understandably) but more closely scrutunised in ours (plenty of articles I can post which elaborate the view here) should prove to you it is not a "lie" that Maggie or anyone else merely pulled out of their rear ends for the sake of it. Though The Great American Explanation (9/11) did not entirely square it all away neatly. Gerry had a couple more years of fundraisers after that.

"The attacks of September 11 made it clear to all that there was no possibility of going back"

With respect. The IRA had understood that a political solution was needed long before the 90s. It had begun political contacts in the 80s because it knew it had reached a stalemate. From the 80s on, underneath the scenes the groundwork was being done to lead to what eventually became the Belfast Agreement/Good Friday Agreement. The Anglo Irish agreement had massive effect on the mindset of the IRA/SF as did its early political success.

Yes, 9/11 had an effect on the IRA, in that it increased the speed in which it carried out this shutdown. However, the armed struggle, as a long term strategy, was dead, and acknowledged as such, long before then

Kloot

We were talking about the grass roots support and funding for the IRA in America which comtinued regardless of any political nodding. Not the political situation which was brought to bear before then. The fact that the two had started to go hand in glove does not mean their criminal activities suddenly just stopped.

Sure the lust for "armed struggle" has lost its romance by the early Nineties.
Paramilitary bosses (thugs) were getting on a bit and their members had gotten rich off smuggling, robbery and money laundering!
.

But they did not just dump the violence or stop asking for $$$$ hand outs. Or cease to be terrorist criminals overnight no matter what some think of the GFA. And it is not "lies" to suggest 9/11 did not play a part in altering this grass roots fundraising mindset. The fact was that for two decades Irish-Americans financed gunrunning, racketeering and “social work” (such as knee-capping) in Northern Ireland. 9/11 helped speed the political process in Adams mind - why?. Because it would also ensure the terrorism kool-aid in certain sections in the US would finally run out.

I didn't realise quite what a stir I had caused and thank you Alison for leaping to my defence. So Edward was a great guy, made great speeches, especially at his brother's funeral ..oh wow...sorry but Chapaquickdic (spelling?) tells me all I need to know about him.

As for the IRA so they were going to disband long before 9/11 - oh yeah.. does anyone know for sure they have got rid of all their stockpiled weapons? They were caught redhanded training terrorists in South America.

As for the Kennedy's I do not go along with all this they were great guys, any of them.

JFKennedy was the biggest womaniser this side of the black stump and maybe that's what got him shot who knows.