FREEDOM PREVAILS.....
Monday, September 29, 2008 at 08:29PM
Further to Troll's excellent post, I can confirm that the freedom to FAIL, enshrined in the US Constitution, has prevailed and the Bail-Out Bill has been voted down.
The rescue plan, a result of tense talks between the government and
lawmakers, was rejected by 228 to 205 votes in the House of Representatives. About two-thirds of Republican lawmakers refused to back the rescue package,
as well as 95 Democrats. Shares on Wall Street plunged within seconds of the announcement, after
earlier falls on global markets. A White House spokesman said that President George W Bush was "very
disappointed" by the result.
So, where do YOU stand?
I am well aware of the apocalyptic talk that has been spouted surrounding this eventuality and one would be reckless if this was casually dismissed BUT my own feeling, to be honest, is one of relief. No Bill is better than a bad Bill.
Bush should be ashamed of himself for not acting sooner, and then when he did decide to act, it is an outrage that he suggested the de facto if not de jure socialisation of a vast swathe of the US Finance sector. Equally - Obama and McCain do not come out of this well, in my view. All around I see a startling lack of leadership at political level - though I salute the 228 who refused to be bullied and brow beaten. I also think the likes of Pelosi looks VERY foolish with her sickly sweet forecasts of a deal done being evidently way off the mark.
Sure this is a scary time and there will be some chaos tomorrow morning in the markets BUT perhaps that is better than allowing the Bush bail out of the rich and stupid? As Troll says damn if we do -- and now damned when we don't.
Interesting times my friends - but the sun will still arise tomorrow and we should not all break down into hysteria just because House refuses to socialise the finance system. Here's a quote to reflect upon....I am sure you can work out who said it...
"Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them."He knew what he was talking about and it is a cor belief that I share.
Have we managed to just escape the greatest subsidy of all time? Your comments please...
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Reader Comments (61)
Havent seen any news all day, this is the first I've seen it, I must say my first reaction is disbelief!! I must say I had the impression it was a done deal.
Well well, lets fasten our seatbelts! :)
Well done those principled (until they see the pork attached to the next bill) tribunes who channeled the spirit of 1776 and defeated the massed ranks of the Democrat majority, the political wing of Goldman Sachs and the MSM.
Having seen the reaction of Pelosi and her Democrat chums, God bless America. They need it.
It ain't over until it's over.
Re-vote for the bailout! Ideology be damned!
A man is jogging along a beach, a woman on a blanket with no arms and no legs cries out to him - "Sir, I've never been hugged, would you hug me." He picks her up, hugs her, puts her down and continues on his way.
Next day, same guy sees the same woman on the beach, and she says "Sir, I've never been kissed, would you kiss me?" He picks her up, kisses her, and then puts her down and jogs away.
Following day same guy joggin along and sees the same woman, "Sir, I've never been f*cked." He picks her up, throws her in the water and says "Now you're f*cked!"
My opinion: basically, we are f*cked.
Mahons,
The Don begs to differ with you.
It's amazing our House is still so tuned in to the will of the people. No el presidente here!
Phntom just read on cnn that that is unlikely to happen before wednesday.
Don David - begging will become more common in any event.
The will of the people may actually bring ruin.
PS Mahons - great joke.
Gosh
yeesh. That's a long time
mahons
Yes. The people are often right, perhaps usually right, but they sure as hell aren't always right.
No we're not F****d. Commodities, industry, manufacturing and financial services still have an inherent value and rate of sustainable growth, it's just a damn sight less than what it has been artificially blown up to be in recent years. The markets will readjust, find their prices, and trade will continue as before.
You are hungry. I have potatoes. Whoops, there's a market crash! But you'll still be hungry tomorrow, and I'll still have the potatoes. A bargain can still be done.
David - Thanks. I thought it went to the edge of ATW civility which I try to adhere to. On this day, I risked it.
By the way, Felix if you are out there - Happy New Year!
I will say that I have never, ever understood the to the moon inflation in house prices here, across America, in Europe.
>>On this day, I risked it.<<
Actually, Mahons, I was hoping for an upbeat "Over here" to counteract all this gloom.
Gee Tom, those who have no money for potatoes cause I lost my job and savings from this. Perhaps you'll allow them to eat the dirt.
>>to the moon inflation in house prices here, across America, in Europe.<<
most incomprehensibly of all, in Ireland.
Noel - I was hoping for one too, Mahons as Nero theme, but this is scary.
Noel the ISEQ almost collapsed today,
I have been and remain to be undecided about the US bail-out- one minute I thinkit is necedssary, then I think damn- why should be bail out the incompetence and greed of Wall Street.
At the minute, I am having a power to the people moment- I don't know how long that will last!!!
You/we are not fucked Mahons. It will pass. Your Congress will pass a bail-out bill in some form. It's a question of time. Meanwhile a few people get to feel happy that politicians are doing their jobs for a bit and listening to (fucking with) the people.
And as stated by others, reduction in house prices has a huge good effect in that some young people can have a shot at buying property that they otherwise couldn't touch. I think New York, Dublin, and London as I say this. Some of the prices have been ludicrous, even in a hot market.
The bill failed because the speaker of the house, Nancy Pelosi, decided to give one of her patented "It's all the Republicans' fault" speeches just before the vote. It alienated enough of the Republicans that the vote failed.
Now it's going to be a lot harder to round up the votes.
Mind you, 40 percent of the Democrats voted against the bill.
>>young people can have a shot at buying property that they otherwise couldn't touch<<
But as prices fall, so will interest rates - and indeed the difficulty of accessing a loan in the first place - rise. It's six of one..
Welcome back, Pinky. Good to hear you again.
Anyone else hearing the rumours of a potential Goldman Sachs collapse? I am hearing it from the same source that discussed Lehmamn's collapse a few weeks prior to the actual occasion.
http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/080929/151208.html
Hello Noel, hope all is well with you.
Noel
True, but for those few with a nice nest egg of cash, or who can get help from parents, the playing field may have improved to an extent
"Have we managed to just escape the greatest subsidy of all time? "
Yes your money is now as safe as houses.
As someone remarked today, the republicans have been playing russian roulette with the economy and they may just have hit the chamber with the bullet in it.
If the democrats come back with new bill that includes all the left-wing stuff that was scrubbed from the bill that was defeated today, are you guys going to be happy?
A number of democrats didn't vote for the bill because those things were absent. Remember, they don't actually need the GOP to pass a bill.
Nonsense, Mahons and you know it. No-one in the UK or USA is reduced to eating dirt unless they deliberately refuse all offers of help/subsidies from the state or the numerous charities out there, and I know this from experience.
But I'm glad that you've at last dropped the pretence of being a "thoughtful, see-both-sides, bi-partisan" commenter, (as Patty so sharply observed) and have "come out" as a certified leftie. One should always be true to one's inner self, I think. You're so much easier to communicate with, now the mask has dropped. I always felt disinclined to comment directly to you before, feeling that something was amiss/disguised, not quite knowing where I stood with you. Now that you've exposed yourself as an Obamaniac with no holds barred, the mask has dropped off and I can read you at face value, which is....somewhat refreshing.
It's a good feeling isn't it? To just lay one's cards bare on the table. I am a conservative! I loathe, hate and despise all socialist/Labour/(US) Democratic ideology. There, I've said it, so you know who I am as a "political animal". And now you've "said it" too. There's a certain sense of liberty in that.
No Frank - my money is safer than houses.
The Republican Party showed itself as a disorganized rabble today. No party leadership to be seen.
Not that the Democrats are any better. Pelosi's speech shows her to be immature, choosing to goad the angry GOP bulls at the most sensitive moment.
David
Depends where you keep that money. If its in an uninsured bank, or in an amount in excess of the local insurance scheme, you need to take a hard look at your financial institution's balance sheet.
If this is left to the markets to solve, as it should be, it will be solved by a wave of bank failures and mergers, in the USA and around the world. That will significantly reduce the supply of credit in the real economy, and that in turn raises the spectre of a world-wide recession on the scale of the 1930s, with enormous increases in unemployment, as previously viable busineses are forced to cease trading as their bank loans are called in.
But that risk was still there, even if the bail-out had worked in the short term. Soon we will find out the worst, one way or the other.
Peter,
I believe a deal can be done but not THIS deal.
As Daphne says, the Democrats can do it without the Republicans and probably will.
>>To just lay one's cards bare on the table. I am a conservative! I loathe, hate and despise all socialist/Labour/(US) Democratic ideology.<<
Tom, can you not imagine that someone perhaps does not have the same need for a snug political pigeon-hole for himself as you do?
As for him "coming out as a certified leftie", your black n' white world will scarcely allow it, but mahons voted for Bush.
Frank,
I'm sure you may be right.Having created the mess, the Dem's are well poised to..ahem...fix it.
>>you need to take a hard look at your financial institution's balance sheet.<<
my money is all in banks - in negative figures.
Gordon Brown returns from the US after giving them his financial advice and moral support.
The US economy goes tits-up.
Well, we did warn you...
David,
"I'm sure you may be right."
At last we agree on something. I'm sure I may be right too :-)
But what about McCain's leadership. He can't even lead his own party.
Frank,
Can Obama lead his? How many Dems voted against it?
As for McCain, I believe his liberal instincts alienate many within the GOP and he should have been MUCH TOUGHER on this bail out.
I think the republicans made a huge mistake. We had a bill without the pork and much needed oversight. The dems are already threatening to bring back the old bill and pass it.
$1.2 Trillion in market value was just erased from American equities. This sell off is anticipatory which should be scaring the hell out of anyone with a grain of sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaKkuJVy2YA
The Last sentence is prophetically wrong!
Tom - The dirt comment was related to your potatoe claim and was not an attempt to protray the literal condition of the masses, although if you ARE going to feed the multitudes I'd suggest fish and loaves.
Jeepers Creepers, I don't think I've claimed to stop being thoughtful, although I have announced who I intend to vote for this Presidential election. I don't feel the need to denigrate all Republicans because I am voting for a Democrat or praise all Democrats because I am voting for one. I am hardly an Obamaniac, but if it helps you to view dissenting opinions that way knock yourself out. I suspect it won't be the first or last of your illusions.
I am suprised you were such a wallflower in addressing me directly before. Are tough guy conservatives really so afraid? I suspect it was the lack of confidence in your arguments and not in my veiled leftie persona. Anyway, I am late for my communist cell meeting.
95 Dems broke with Pelosi. they could have passed it.
Delicious broadside, Thomas !
What threw the 'nay' votes in the House was the withering attack on Socialism by many Republicans.
Over here you could almost hear the Labour party fouling its collective pants in fear.
Brown is looking more raddled, uglier and moribund than ever before. He knows he's done for. He must kill himself. NOW.
Bernard
You need to get a grip, pal.
Daphne,
"$1.2 Trillion in market value was just erased from American equities."
Well doesn't it just show what a game of smoke and mirrors the whole thing is. What of that value has actually been lost from the world? This is how the market really values those equities. Why would a $700B handout change it?
Also if you think of the value of the original defaulted mortgages, the actual principal and not the lifetime value, that's got to be a hell of a lot less than $700B. The government could probably have simply paid off those mortgages and acquired all those homes for a fraction of the bailout cost.
Not that it would have made sense to do so but it makes you think. The difference can only be the banks' profits.
Well, as I don't have any argument other than "socialism/communism sucks", as demonstrated to me most vivaciously by Poles and Hungarians who've actually lived through it, then it can't have been that, Mahons. I pray you'll never have cause to try and vocalise your hatred of it in the same way. Most comfortably well-off European and American champagne socialists have no real idea of the stark realities caused by such systems of government. You have to ask a 40+ year old Hungarian or Pole, in order to get the real picture. And be prepared to weep.
Only the hopelessly young and inexperienced can be fooled by Obama's Musl - uh, No! I meant Christian! Christian! Please believe me! Christian! leanings. Yeah, right, we believe you. Slip of the tongue. Could happen to anyone.
What should happen now is that George Bush should invite all those who voted against it to a meeting at the White House to discuss the problem.
And then whilst the meeting is going on, hold the vote again sneakily.
Ross, you're not a member of the EU parliament by any chance? If not, you should put yourself forward. They like ideas such as that one. You'll go far.
Commodities, industry, manufacturing and financial services still have an inherent value and rate of sustainable growth, it's just a damn sight less than what it has been artificially blown up to be in recent years. The markets will readjust, find their prices, and trade will continue as before.
Virtually all growth is derived from debt, simply because virtually all money is derived from debt. Our system requires continual debt to continually create new money.
No new debt, no new money. Game over.
Im probably too old for the draft, its the young'uns I feel sorry for.