God Save the Queen
Tuesday, February 6, 2007 at 06:52AM Nobody who has been to Auschwitz can avoid being totally overcome by the experience. I haven't been myself, though I have heard tales from those who have. I remember my father telling me that after visiting there some years ago, not one person in his coach party spoke on the way back to the hotel. They sat through their evening meal in silence and it was only at breakfast the next day when normal conversation resumed - such was the impact of the place.
Germany and Poland are no longer enemies. Germany was compelled to respect the sovereign integrity of Poland as a precursor to unification. Yes, their fans clashed at the World Cup, but I could not honestly imagine the Polish being so immature as to recommend the banning of the German National Anthem (Das Lied der Deutschen) during an international sporting fixture. I've spent the last half-hour trawling Google to see if I could locate one story pertaining to any possible ban. I could not locate one.
So why then are we subjected to this non-discussion about the playing of God Save the Queen in Croke Park at the forthcoming Six Nations rugby match? Auntie Beeb has an entire article devoted to its alleged significance, and Republican Sinn Fein (the movement even more despicable than its mainstream rival) plans to demonstrate outside the ground when England meet Ireland there. Germany's crimes against the Poles and Polish Jews outweighs any wrongdoings we committed against the Irish a billion times over. Moreover, our fights against them frequently took place in the context of their attacks and crimes against the island's minority Protestant population down the centuries.
Britain's irregular forces killed 14 people at Croke Park back in 1920. So flaming what? This action took place at a time when we were fighting to keep the entire island a part of the United Kingdom against an illegal guerilla army that could equal the brutality of anything meeted out by the Black and Tans. In those days the British Army really did meet violence with violence on the island of Ireland. It was a far cry from the role they adopted during mass deployment in Ulster after 1969. 1920 was 1920. This is a new century. To those Irish who bemoan the entitlement of English (and a large percentage of the Unionist population who support England) rugby fans to have GStQ played at this bastion of sport-cum-bigotry, I say 'grow up'!
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Reader Comments (192)
A large and growing proportion of the Unionist population feel no affinity whatsoever towards the Irish rugby team-the refusal of the IRFU to recognise that there are two traditions on the island, most recently with regards to to the upcoming match with Italy at Ravenhill proves once again that it is not a true all-Ireland team which deserves our support.
To interpret that apathy as support for England, however, is quite wrong....
I wouldn't stretch that to say they would support England
Irish teams play English teams in rugby quite often and there is never ever any hassle.
I think you will find that the reaction of the Irish people and the Irish media will be a lot more respectful then tends to be the case when the English are playing Germany. Where the english media and fans attempt to relive the war over and over.
>>So flaming what? This action took place at a time when we were fighting to keep the entire island a part of the United Kingdom against an illegal guerilla army that could equal the brutality of anything meeted out by the Black and Tans. <<
The past is the past mate. But there is a significance to this game in this location. The significance is that its a marker in the continuingly improving relationship between the people on these islands. If the Irish fans react badly I for one will be disappointed. There never is anti english demonstrations at these games and now is not the time for them either.
>>To those Irish who bemoan the entitlement of English (and a large percentage of the Unionist population who support England)<<
So your saying that NI rugby players, dressed in the Irish rugby jersey, watching their ulster players playing against the English, would be supporting
England. What gave you this idea!!
>>A large and growing proportion of the Unionist population feel no affinity whatsoever towards the Irish rugby team-the refusal of the IRFU to recognise that there are two traditions on the island, most recently with regards to to the upcoming match with Italy at Ravenhill proves once again that it is not a true all-Ireland team which deserves our support.<<
Paul, I agree. If this is an all island team, then its only natural that God save The Queen be played if the games are in NI. However, are you aware of a request be made for this ?
"On November 21, 1920 Croke Park was the scene of a massacre by the Auxiliary Division. British police auxiliaries entered the ground, shooting indiscriminately into the crowd killing 13 during a Dublin-Tipperary football match. The dead included 12 spectators and one player, Michael Hogan. The latter, Tipperary's captain, gave his name posthumously to the Hogan stand built four years later in 1924. These shootings, on the day which became known as Bloody Sunday, were a reprisal for the assassination of 12 or 13 British Intelligence officers, known as the Cairo Gang, by Michael Collins' squad earlier that day."
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croke_Park
Yeah.
Both episodes were cold-blooded murder.
Verse 6
Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King!
And not forgetting the Catholics -
From France and Pretender
Great Britain defend her,
Foes let them fall;
From foreign slavery,
Priests and their knavery,
And Popish Reverie,
God save us all
Charming. Can't imagine why people don't like it.
Who gives a toss about RSF. Let them off. The absolute majority of Irish will not have a problem with this game and have never had a problem with GSF being played in Dublin. Martin Johnson could learn a lesson or two on respecting heads of state.
I agree with the broad thrust of your response. The trouble is there is a small, yet significant, band of people (mostly in NI, I would think) who will rage against GStQ at Croke Park for every drop of propaganda they can milk.
Its going to be a great game. Johnny wilkinson played a blinder the weekend
GSF ??? sorry, meant God Save The Queen
So the line about 'Saxon foe' in the Soldier's Song is not offensive then?
Many National Anthems have lines in them that the petty could take offence at. Shouldn't stop the customary propriety of playing them at any international game anywhere in the world.
It's about mature politics.
Kloot
I believe there was, whether from the Ulster RFU or supporters I'm not sure. From what I understand, the IRFU have designated the match as being on *foreign* soil (OK fair enough Martyrs Memorial is just down the road from ravenhill, but the last time I looked we're still on the same island;)).By doing this, there is no "statutory" requirement to have GSTQ played.
For years, Unionist rugby supporters and players have stood respectfully to the Republic's anthem and flag everytime they watched a home match in Dublin...pity the courtesy couldn't have been returned when we the IRFU finally deigned to have amatch in Belfast.
Proof if it were needed:
One island, two (and rising if you count the Poles, Latvians etc!!) peoples.
What about dropping both anthems ?
But then we would be left with Irelands call...hmmm..crap.
"out yonder wait's the Saxon foe "
Offensive ? No.
I doubt it.
Both are disputed anthems in different parts of the island, so yes, it would be the least hypocritical answer for the IRFU. I won't hold my breath though for them to see the light.
"But then we would be left with Irelands call...hmmm..crap"
Dear God no, I'd rather have the Boys of the Old Brigade to that tuneless dirge
Some might disagree with you. I find 'Saxon foe' no more or no less offensive than the lines you quote in GStQ.
My point is that National Anthems are played at international fixtures with no controversy. For a small section of the Irish population to make something out of this is, frankly, pathetic.
Neither.
Will be cheering on our team tonight against the Welsh and finding where Liechtenstein is in the atlas for our next away beano next month;)
Talking about the real and original and accept no substitutes, "Ireland" team of course;)
Was ahead of myself there.. french next weekend...hangs head in embarrasment :) ...
For once you have a point but have ruined it by couching it in your usual bigoted nonsense.
I have no problem with GSTQ being played whether it be in Lansdowne or Croker. We should treat our English visitors with respect. RSF are twats and represent no-one.
I do have a problem with the suggestion of GSTQ possibly being played to represent the Irish rugby at team at Ravenhill. It is the national anthem of the UK and has nothing in it that is distinctly Irish. It would be an embarrassment if it were played.
A bit of an extreme analogy here but I'd rather have "The Sash" played as at least it is an Irish song from one of our traditions.
Paul is half-right though ;). The IRFU have backed themselves into a corner by their PC bullshit "we only play Amhran na bhFiann because we play in the Republic". They have been shown to be hypocrites and unionists have a right to be irritated.
Were they though ? Let's not get carried away by spin here.
Kloot <Q>Who gives a toss about RSF. </Q>
Could be more important than usual this election kloot - they intend to field a lot of Candidates at the forthcoming elections - which together with people like David Hyland standing against the evil empire should make things interesting in several ways.
1) will the Shinners have to become Greener than otherwise which won't help their "party of reconciliation" spin
2) will the shinners, directly or by proxy, resort to their old violent ways against their opponents - ie will baseball bat sales rocket at Curley's ?
3) will they cost the shinners seats ?
Wedge
For once you have a point but have ruined it by couching it in your usual republican nonsense.
Ravenhill is in the United Kingdom. The national anthem of the United Kingdom should thus be played when the Irish team meets there.
It's either that, or no Soldier's Song in Dublin. Or does that concept of 'an Ireland of equals' not quite cut it with you?
Insulting Unionists by referring to them as a 'tradition' on the island as opposed to a distinct people with a distinct birthright and national allegiance is, perhaps, one of your more revealing bits of terminology.
It's also the national anthem of this part of ireland for the foreseeable future Reg :)
Not sure what your saying here Mad, how were they not both murderous acts.
Why do they refer to it as that ? Surely as it was written in English it's adding insult to injury to use the gaelic wording? Do the IRFU follow the GAA in requiring team names in Gaelic and only on Irish paper etc etc ?
It's the word "retaliation" that makes me wonder.
The killings, terrible though they were, happened while "in hot pursuit" of Collins thugs - who should carry most of the blame for USING the crowd at Croke Park for cover. Now , there's no doubt that the Murder of Mellows and the others a few years later was retaliation and murder - as there was a cold-blooded decision taken to shoot helpless prisoners in custody in revenge.
Don't get me wrong here, What happened at Croker was wrong - but the spin is, IMO , disrespectful of the innocent spectators who died that day.
"Ravenhill is in the United Kingdom. The national anthem of the United Kingdom should thus be played when the Irish team meets there."
You could not possibly have missed the point more!
"Insulting Unionists by referring to them as a 'tradition' on the island as opposed to a distinct people with a distinct birthright and national allegiance is, perhaps, one of your more revealing bits of terminology."
It wasn't an insult. Anyway, if a unionist is insulted by my use of the word "tradition"; I apologise to them. Not to you. It's none of your business.
MR,
"Surely as it was written in English it's adding insult to injury to use the gaelic wording?"
Yes, we only use the Irish name to insult unionists. Or, perhaps, the Irish name is used as it is always sung in Irish at sporting events (despite being written in English - in beautiful Co. Down BTW).
Anyway, lets not turn this into a discussion of the past. we will all only get side tracked.
Will you be watching the game yourself ?
What's insulting about 'Saxon'. Personally I would rather not be associated with one of the most savage tribes that ever invaded these islands, but the English don't usually agree. They seem to think there's a lot to be proud of in their 'Anglo-Saxon' past, mud huts and all. And good luck to them.
So you're finding insult where no reasonable person could find it. An Englishman being called 'Saxon' is no more insulting (or accurate) than calling the Scotsmen 'Celts'.
It's actually quite generous - all things considered !
Reg - as it was written in English why is it "always sung in Irish" ? Seriously. It wasn't even the original anthem of the free State.
Couldn't tell you. I don't see the problem. It sounds better in Irish anyway.
"Were they though ? Let's not get carried away by spin here."
If not cold-blooded murder, how would you describe them? Gallant acts of combat?
I dont suppose you would accept a kidney or some other essential organ in return for the ticket ?
Racist - how so? And if so , 'English' is surely racist too ..
David,
Are you in the Hogan? (I don't really care where you are sitting - just never thought I would ask YOU that!)
Seriously though, where did you get a ticket?
It would be a meritorious act. What's different about shooting the British secret police, as far as the Irish are concerned ?
On a light-hearted note - I see that Plumber chappy who streaked at Croker was given an on-air bollocking by his ma on a radio phone-in and warned not to try and repeat his stunt (for Cystic fibrosis) at the Rugby :)
I heard that on the Joe Duffy show yesterday.. Hillarious.
The Germans invaded France in 1940 and enslaved the population, including implementing the "final solution" against French jews.
The British were already leaving Ireland in 1920. Home Rule was on the table and a form of it was eventually agreed in the treaty at the end of the year.
Big difference.
I dont suppose you would accept a kidney or some other essential organ in return for the ticket ?</Q>
try offering him one of Adams, McGuinness or Kelly's vital organs and see if he bites ;)
Reg - of course you don't see the problem - and I don't mean that unpleasantly. Irish doesn't come with the same baggage for you as it does for my community.
An apology from you would have all the worth of an empty cardboard box. And yes, when my fellow BRITISH people are insulted by nationalist terms that are, essentially, pejorative and ignorant, an apology to them wouldn't go amiss.
I'm not missing any point. I repeat, for clarity: RAVENHILL IS LOCATED IN THE UNITED KINGDOM. THUS, THE ANTHEM OF THE UNITED KINGDOM SHOULD BE PLAYED WHEN THE IRISH TEAM MEET THERE.
You are the one having trouble with this, oft-repeated, republican concept of 'equality'. I have no issues with the Soldier's Song being played in Dublin.
Samson
None of the people who migrated to these islands down the years, Saxon, Roman or Celt, are whiter than white. All things considered, I think a little maturity from you would be welcome. Or are you 'Samson' by name, but 'Delilah' by conviction?
Maybe Collins just couldn't see far enough into the future to realize there was no point in fighting. Or maybe if he hadn't fought, the British would have found an excuse to stay on .
I hope you and all the other supporters have a great day out in Croke Park.