I Have An Opinion
Reader Seamus made the following comment today on the Now We're All Mulsims post.
".......all I am saying is that we would get really pissed of if some Islamic Imam would tell us how to live our lives. We get really wound up if someone even mentions the idea of Sharia Law in the West. Why should we attempt to enforce our rules on them and then get wound up when they do the same to us?"
On the face of it, I would agree. I'm a keep out of my yard - to each his own, kind of woman. Heck, I wish my government would spend the next two years doing nothing more than repealing laws and defunding at least a fourth of their useless departments that squat all over my backyard. I can't follow my own natural inclinations on this issue though, call me a hypocrite if it pleases you, but for the sake of my children and theirs, I'm going to have loud opinions on how they're conducting their day-to-day life.
I would like to ignore the problems in the rest of the world, it would be so easy to quietly turn a blind eye to the brutality of the Muslim world and blithely call it acceptable cultural differences, but I can't because it affects my world. Madrassas that brainwash boys to hate, intolerant theocratic countries that demand ideological conformity or death, societies that mutilate and condemn women to lives of ignorant poverty with no more status than livestock, dictators that brutalize, starve and murder their citizens to maintain power and in the process create generations of dysfunctional sociopaths. These people have a meaningful bearing on my society and I'm not going to be quiet about their backward, nihilistic behaviour.
We absolutely should intervene in these countries to alter their mindsets and bury these horrific cultural practices six feet under as quickly as possible. I'm not a fan of NGO's usually, but they are trying to bring a number of much needed reforms to the Islamic world; education to girls and women, trying to drastically reduce FGM, extinguish the practice of child sex slaves as a norm, raise the age of females eligible for marriage, offer alternative, real education for boys outside of the madrassas, building schools, medical facilities, and participatory mediation outside of Islamic courts. These people have been so isolated by their governments and religion that they need robust outside intervention to jumpstart much needed change. I very firmly believe that we won't see an end to Islamic Terrorism until these societies embrace our fundamental belief in human rights and equality for all men.
If we meddle enough we may end up living in a world where the term Islamic Terrorism is an anachronism. Watch this and tell me we shouldn't try to insert our cultural ideals in the Middle East.
Daphne
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Reader Comments (78)
"If we meddle enough we may end up living in a world where the term Islamic Terrorism is an anachronism."
Or the opposite might happen. The biggest recruiting drive that Al-Qaeda has is the argument that the West is trying to involve itself in the Islamic World. If we prove them right then it will increase the strength of Al-Qaeda, rather than diminishing it. I don't like the idea of leaving modernist groups in the Islamic World and Islamic women to fend for themselves, [I am a big fan of the idea that when good men do nothing, then that is evil in itself] but I believe our intervention will cause more harm than good.
Nice writing Daphne. One of the great fallicies is that certain basic freedoms are somehow alien to all of humankind. A failure to recognize our strong points in the West is as bad as failing to recognize our weaknesses.
I have been missing you Mahons. I don't like it when your too busy to jack around on atw. Thanks getting my point, the nice words were real good too.
I think ultimately the best intervention is the slow but sure economic cultural and social liberalism then we help drip drip slowly into their suffocating culture by virtue of the increasingly fluid global world we live in.
Great piece of polemic passion by the way Daphne.
PS - I presume FGM is Female Genital Mutilation ?
Daphne
Mahons is always here, apart from when he's in the pub.. or breastfeeding the twins !
Stop blowing it out your ass Seamus. Stop and think a minute. If women, children and low status men can be elevated beyond private property/state owned status, they will change the fundamental dynamic of society. People don't normally want to blow themselves up or mortally fight anyone else - they want a decent livelihood, a roof and good eats, a way to improve their children's opportunities and a nice roll in the hay on Saturday night. Religious freedom probably ranks right up there too - a lot of these people don't even have a choice about the level of islam they want to practice.
You think totalitarian religious mindlocks are good? And I thought you were a liberal.
Yep, Colm....FGM, cutting the sweet bits. Be glad I didn't put one of those gross videos up.
Polemic! Good word Colm. :-)
Daphne,
Good post and I agree.
"First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples."
This is a quote from Osama Bin Laden. It is part of his Fatwa against the West. Increased intervention by the West will cause an increase of Al-Qaeda recruitment, because in the eyes of young Muslims it will just back up everything that Bin Laden.
"If women, children and low status men can be elevated beyond private property/state owned status, they will change the fundamental dynamic of society"
And how can we do this? I would love if we could but we haven't the ability to do so.
Sounds a bit Phallic doesn't it Daphne ?
And on that note I'm off to bed. If the thread turns smutty I can't be blamed ;)
Cheers David.
Well, we know Osama has been pretty good at spreading toxic fertilizer. Wouldn't you like to change how his words are perceived? I'm an optimist Seamus, and from looking at the numbers banging on my country's door, so are a whole lot of other people.
I think we can change that mindset with small/large scale humanitarian intervention, we need to reshape their frame of mind about humanity. It could mean a world of difference to them and us.
Daphne very good post.
Seamus OBL did state that in his propaganda Fatwha It's nice to see someone actually reading the thing and asking questions.
The truth however is different than the picture he paints. Sure he recruited some disafected martyrs with his words, but everywhere the US is based our soldiers dispell those words. They are are greatist ambassadors. If you have ever been in a war zone, when the shit hits the fan the natives go to the americans. Whether that is for protection or medical care. As for spear heading anything the biggest misscalculation OBL made was that the US would not react to his attack. Untill 9-11 we considered the attacks outside the country we suffered were the price of doing business in certain parts of the world.
I once again have to agree with Colm (god this is getting scary)
"I think ultimately the best intervention is the slow but sure economic cultural and social liberalism then we help drip drip slowly into their suffocating culture by virtue of the increasingly fluid global world we live in."
However I must add a caveot Once attacked or threatened the best way to change the minds of those that attack us is with over whelming force.
If you kill enough of the enemy they may continue to say what they want but they stop fighting. The false hood that Martyrdom increases recrutment has been proven a lie. The more that you kill the harder it is to recruit. Thats why you are starting to see them use woman and the mentally handicapped.
"I think ultimately the best intervention is the slow but sure economic cultural and social liberalism then we help drip drip slowly into their suffocating culture by virtue of the increasingly fluid global world we live in."
I agree with Colm on this one as well. While what Daphne proposed is good in theory, in real practice it would probably increase recruitment to Al-Qaeda and cause a lot of resentment in some Islamic communities that will simply shrink back into themselves. It took us centuries to civilise ourselves, and it will probably take centuries for the Islamic World to do so as well and I think if we are too heavy handed in our approach to help them then it will be more a hindrance than a help.
It's already happening in practice Seamus and it is changing legislation and thought in some ME countries.
It certainly doesn't provoke them as much as the Golden Arches or KFC buckets do on Islamobad Main Street.
I totally agree, Daphne.
Until the change is effected, though, I disagree about the slow drip stuff. The tribal mentality demands that we hit - and we hit hard. If we fail to do so we are perceived as weak and they will continue to attack. This is a culture in which violence and honor are intertwined. Deal with it. Lovey, dovey,slow drip isn't going to cut it.
BTW - that video horrified me. What a sweet girl and only a year younger than one of my girls - she has been given to a man, by her parents, who beat and raped her repeatedly.
What appears to be religious ideology which fuels the conflict is actually the human instinct for survival.
It's all motivated by tribal conflict.
The tribe is the lowest common denominator when it comes to group survival. Way back in the days of cave people the striving for food tturned into the fighting for territory. Now the conflicts have evolved into fighting for ideological territory. And victory in that arena requires subjugation or conversion of those with different cultural beliefs.
It's all quite simple. The human species was design to be in eternal conflict. It weeds out the weak. Either physically or mentally. And it insures the specie's survival by preserving the strongest and most intellegent.
Daphne - I'll be overseas and out of the ATW community for a couple weeks (secret mission etc., celebrating the anniversary of staging the Moon Landing - 39 years ago yesterday). Hold the fort!
--most christian westerners... would much rather women were constantly pregnant, barefoot and standing at the kitchen sink--
Shouldn't bother responding to this, but will if only to say that you don't know "most" christians very well, either in your own country, or in America/Canada/Australia
This is like something from a freshman college essay from 1967. There are Christians like that today, but they're not a majority of anything.
Laughable. You can have the last word on this, be as angry as you like.
Yeah, Alison, Phantom is right. We don't have them barefoot anymore. We allow you to wear shoes. And they are no constantly in front of the sinks. The upstairs rooms don't clean themselves you know.
There was nothing at all angry in my point of view or the comment I posted. But I can see the direction this is already headed (personal, right out the gate) so fuck it, i cannot be arsed.
Try this:
Awesome post Daphne.
Hopefully a genuine compliment and not a weak attempt to make up for last week's rages.
It's a genuine compliment. As was my genuine and open apology to Daphne last week. Some people deserve apologies. The thread and certain venomous potrayals of women who have had abortions of course stands without apology inspite of its predictable bile. Cannot wait for another post on Norn Ireland so i can point out yours and others temperances Phantom. You are not so above a bit of passion in a debate that your own quick temper is never on display. As it was here. Without any reason. Perhaps that is better noted as 'pathetic'.
"The thread and certain venomous potrayals of women who have had abortions of course stands without apology inspite of its predictable bile."
People should not have to apoligise for stating their opinion, even when their opinion disagrees with the mighty Alison.
Awesome comment Alison.
I don't apologise for my opinion of the God leaning dickheads who think abortion makes women 'murderers' Seamus. I chose to apologise uniquely to Daphne for the tone of that comment.
It is a pity that a comment not directed at either of you and containing my own point of view on this subject (not the last), cannot stand on its own.
and that you Phantom are so keen to shit stir.
Guys that story is over. Alison is my friend, we fight, we make-up, now let's all move along.
It's okay. I'm outta here. I meant it but it's perhaps best my comment is restricted to 'awesome' rather than a point of view. It was a great post Daphne. Hope you get a decent thread. Ciao
Damn I always miss the fire works!
It depends on what one means in intervention. If places like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan don't want to change, its hard to see how westerners can force them to. Thirty centuries of bad culture don't change overnight. Islam is probably the manifestation of that bad culture, not the cause of it.
I would love to say that I have a solution. Before a solution is arrived at, we have to break the back of the kind of multiculturalism that says "one culture is as good as the next". They're not. And unless we're willing to say so, I am not sure that anything will get done.
Well....thought provoking I must say. I cannot say how strongly I disagree with you on this Daphne. My reason/s are that your opinion on what these people want may not be what they want at all. Do fundamentalists really want only a roof, good eats and a roll in the hay on Saturday night? I doubt it very much. Come to think of it, is that all westerners want? It's not enough for me.
I would think their religion meant quite a lot to them, and they'd want to practice it, and be left alone to develop their own societies in their own way. I absolutely agree that intervention will be a recruiting sergeant for A-Q.
It's time for the big satan to keep its nose out. Interfering and imposing western values on people who may not want them is not a recipe for success.
Besides look what happens when Brown gives money to the Palis....this blog takes issue with it. So its a no win situation.
Troll, there isn't going to be a military soloution to this. You will learn what the IRA and Adams et al had to learn that every conflict ends in negotiation.
Gosh
You kinda forgot that WW2 thing.
if you read my full comment I agreed with Colm on the drip drip,
My statement about military action was clearly stated Once attacked or threatened the best way to change the minds of those that attack us is with over whelming force. If you kill enough of the enemy they may continue to say what they want but they stop fighting.
re-read my Monday, July 21, 2008 at 12:51AM comment
Daphne,
I'm with you 99% on this one. If I could figure out what a "Mulsim" is then doubtless I'd be with you 100%.
But kidding aside, you're on the money here. Yes, it's our duty to intervene. When fellow-humans are suffering, it's up to the free to unchain them. It was always thus. Nobody has the right to stand by and do nothing. The race has evolved through intervention. All our "good" laws came about in this way. Let's go in there and help those women!
Seamus,
Your point is well made. Intervention / meddling will doubtless create new would-be martyrs. But this is the price we have to pay. It's making omelettes. In 100 years the Muslim world, a world where women have equal rights, will thank us.
Alison,
Your language has deteriorated enormously since I emigrated. I love it, keep it up :0)
No Phantom. Not really. Look at this report from the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7513659.stm
If they cannot impose Britishness in Britain, and develop social cohesion then what chance of imposing values and customs on foreign societies? Not much success in my view. Look at France and western Europe, they have the same problem with their immigrants, and the US doesnt have great social cohesion either.
Didn't the Ayotollah teach us anything.
Gosh
It is funny though. I have seen reports that Muslims integrate much better in the US, and personal experience shows this to be true--there are plenty of Muslims in my part of Brooklyn, and a lot of them own houses and businesses, and the first native born generation seem to fit in fairly well with the larger culture.
Maybe whatever the US is doing right or not doing wrong can be looked at.
But yes, how can anyone speak of altering vast, hostile, medieval societies like Pakistan [ where serfdom is still practiced ] when changes cannot be affected in Birmingham or Paris?
"In 100 years the Muslim world, a world where women have equal rights, will thank us."
I just fear the amount of flag draped coffins we shall see before that day arrives.
Phantom, maybe Brooklyn is just that bad that they fit right in there.
Always miss you Dawkins. xx
True, true!
My auto mechanic is Muslim! If you ever need some repairs when here, you must stop at "Carma Car Care"!!
Phantom, as you know we are only beginning the process here. I believe we have 3/4 000 muslims in NI now, but I only see one family locally who dress in traditional garb. Mind you it is frowned upon. All you can see is her face, and they do indeed single themselves out by their dress. Even with our cold and miserable weather this summer they still look out of place, it would really help if they come to live among us in the west that people are prepared to adopt our forms of dress and try to fit in just a little. It would make things so much easier......especially in a society like ours which is only coming out of conflict and still learning to live together, never mind with new comers.
Question
If you still have high unemployment, then why are you allowing any newcomers? Unless they are there to open a business and hire some locals while at it.
Daphne,
I'm with you 99% on this one. If I could figure out what a "Mulsim" is then doubtless I'd be with you 100%.
But kidding aside, you're on the money here. Yes, it's our duty to intervene. When fellow-humans are suffering, it's up to the free to unchain them. It was always thus. Nobody has the right to stand by and do nothing. The race has evolved through intervention. All our "good" laws came about in this way. Let's go in there and help those women!
Seamus,
Your point is well made. Intervention / meddling will doubtless create new would-be martyrs. But this is the price we have to pay. It's making omelettes. In 100 years the Muslim world, a world where women have equal rights, will thank us.
Alison,
Your language has deteriorated enormously since I emigrated. I love it, keep it up :0)
Northern Ireland's rate of unemployment is only 4.5%, one of the lowest in Europe, and lower than the United States.
Deja Vu.
--In 100 years the Muslim world, a world where women have equal rights, will thank us.--
You will be greeted as liberators!
Don't know the answer to that. Read the Irish News during the week and saw a piece about an Indian guy who came here with his wife and daughter and have settled in WB, he is a black taxi driver and she is a nurse. Good luck to them but....
I can remember the days when black taxis were for ex-prisoners. Not only for them - solely- but they were given priority. A bit like jobs for the boys on both sides of the divide. Those jobs were highly sought after because people supported them rather than the busses - they were 'the peoples taxis'. I heard some foul comments about that peice. Along the lines of 'how come he got that job'.
People being people will think like that. Myself, I like a bit of difference, as long as it never reaches the level of population replacement we read and see about in Britain, I'd be content. The survival of the fittest, thats how it works everywhere, but people are peeved. Theres a credit crunch, food is rising, utitilies are rising and jobs are scarce, not only for the unskilled but in all areas.
It's fool hardy to take in so many but ours is not to reason why I guess.....