I love it....

And your point is?

This one is even better.

Peter: Two points, actually:

1st: the Swiss Federal Ethics Committee on Non-Human Biotechnology recently issued a report titled: "The Dignity of Living Beings with Regard to Plants; " This is a clear demonstration of what we all have suspected: Western Civilization, Europe in particular, has left gravitational orbit and is now in free-fall in greater outerspace.

I mean, really...the ethics of plants?

2nd: I really, really dislike political activists and therefore, I really, really like making fun of them.

Patty

Thanks for the clarification.

I don't eat meat. I'm not vegetarian, but I really, really hate the cruelty involved in factory farming. Do You?

No, Peter. That's not an issue I can bite my teeth into. No pun intended.

Patty

No, I didn't think that cruelty to farm animals would be an issue for you.

Peter: "No, I didn't think that cruelty to farm animals would be an issue for you."

I take offense at that, Peter. Why do you say that? Do you seek to intentionally offend me? Or do you say that
because I think global warming is a hoax, and that modern, large farms provide a necessary and benefiial service, providing more food than ever before?

Have you ever been on a farm, Peter? Do you think killing baby mice in a barn is cruel? I don't like animals killed, but sometimes in farming killing baby mice is necessary. Otherwise, there is no grain left.

Do you think that it is a good thing that most people have adequate food on the table? Or do you think that we, in the West, have no right to eat as well as we do?

Do you know what Soylent Green is? :)

Patty posted

I take offense at that, Peter. Why do you say that?

I asked: " I really, really hate the cruelty involved in factory farming. Do You?"

You replied: "No, Peter. That's not an issue I can bite my teeth into. No pun intended."

Then you object when I draw the obvious conclusion and then spout a lot of rightist nonsense, such as that anyone who worries about factory farming is anti-food, or anti-human. And you drag in global warming.

You really need to calm down. And think.

What is the cruelty involved in factory farming, Peter? The cruelty that you hate so much?

Patty

I was thinking of the way chickens and pigs are intensively farmed with the object of producing the cheapest possible food and with no thought to the evident suffering of the animals. Do you think these chickens look happy?

Patty,

"What is the cruelty involved in factory farming?"

Jeeze, I can't believe anyone in the educated west needs to ask this.

Patty, I hear you on the eco-nuts and plant's rights....but factory farming is pretty brutal and the processing (killing) can be obscenely cruel. It's a whole different world from the family farm.

Dawkins: No love lost, then. Stay off my posts.

Daphne: I know. My bad.

Peter: This video is about plants. It has a relevance due to a bio-ethics report from Switz. It's not about factory farming. Learn to read.

Patty

You asked: "What is the cruelty involved in factory farming, Peter?"

I answered. Learn to read.

After yesterdays mega-comment postings/argument about an obnoxious joke referring to cannabalizing of men, and alot of baiting and intentional misunderstandings back and forth -- which ended in a threatening name calling by someone named "AC1" - resulting in my disabling of comments -

I seem to have lost my sense of humor and patience with lefty idiots.

Peter -- certainly not your fault. While I disagree with you, you are, in fact, usually thoughtful and I thank you for that.

But anyway, I'm taking a week off from ATW. A step back. See you all later.

Patty

We disagree about most things. But I enjoy the debates, and look forward to your next post.

Well I'll still defend you here Patty. They're chickens dude, did you seriously ask it the chickens looked happy?

They're chickens. Either way they end up in a bucket
with a smiling Southerner on it.

Dawkins, why do you always go for the jugular? Can't you ever state your opinion without being snarky or mean? Patty is most tolerant of disagreement, she's taken more blows on this site than anybody and she almost always responds with aplomb and reasoned arguments. She admits when she's mistaken and handles the abuse thrown her way with grace and dignity.

I think you should be more polite to the people who provide your entertainment on atw. They deserve some respect for being willing to put their thoughts in the public realm and open them up to scrutiny.

Patty's a class act. You should apologize for being rude.

Patty have a good sabbatical, I look forward to seeing your pretty face back real soon.

Dawkins: you must be joking, dude...this isn't the BBC. I told you - I'm all out of patience.

Peter & Daphne: thanks. see you later.

AC1: you are an enigma wrapped in a riddle....now where is my wine.....

Oh crap, Dawkins..here. Comments back on. Not because I have to, because I want to. Don't swear. I'm not around to monitor.

I just think that there's a sense in which we've got to try and be respectful to one's "opponent" when we disagree with their point.
For example, the other day I disagreed quite strongly with Daphne's YouTube vid post about that kid who wanted to leave home. I took a very different meaning from that video than, maybe, the point that Daphne was actually trying to make.
I went ahead and said so, but I also took pains to try and point out that, just because I disagreed and I saw things very differently, I kind of understood that maybe it was just a cultural thing, and that by disagreeing, I meant no personal disrespect to Daphne herself. (I hope that came across).
I know that I have often, in the past, been just as snappy and intolerant myself, but now that ATW is a truly transatlantic blog, you find yourself having to take on board the fact that these disagreements and misinterpretations will happen.

Just saw this. Very good!

And to touch on what you've been speaking speaking of--I too think that much of factory farming is just reprehensible on many levels --the dreadful suffering of the animals, the unnatural diet they are forced to eat, and the antibiotics they are stuffed with.

Its bad morality, but it also leads to a bad diet for us too, a major subject in itself. And you don't need to be a vegan to realize this.

Well said, Tom.

>>she's taken more blows on this site than anybody <<

No. With all respect to Patty, who has taken more than her share of blows, that title is definitely earned by Daytripper.

>>and she almost always responds with aplomb and reasoned arguments.<<

Again, not nearly as much as Daytripper.

DT, however, never gets recognition for any of this, as most people here strongly disagree with his views.

And most of these criticisms/praise of the form shown by commenters have to be seen in this light. They are motivated by partisanship, not by any distaste at the form itself.

Dawkins' "going for the jugular" here is the common stock in trade of debate on all sides. It's really hypocritical of anyone to disagree with it, especially when that person supports e.g. the likes of Troll.

Also, if you feel you have to censor, Patty, I think you should lat least tell us when and how many. Otherwise the thread becomes incomprehensible.

Noel has it spot on here. Most commenters attitudes are formed not by what they view as abusiveness but by the political slant that the person they object too holds. Dawkins has said nothing at all abusive here that compares in any way with what some others get away with and are indeed applauded for. Yes the thread on Male/female relations became heated and personalised and I can understand why the comments were closed although I never agree with such action , but Patty then goes and blames the 'Lefties' (her 12.20am above) which is just nonsense - it was nothing to do with typical left/right political debate, but why let reality get in the way of a lazy political stereotype. Is it only Right wingers who are allowed to be impassioned on ATW ?

We all post our opinions here , contributors and commenters and if we choose to say something with a strong particular slant and in particular mock those who hold opposing views, we should expect to be bit back, not whinge about the unfairness of responsive criticism. No one here needs or should expect to be treated with kid gloves.

Patty

You put up a post about male female relations and got a thoroughly entertaining thread around precisely that when you think about it. And anyway none of it was weird, ugly, abusive or directly personal towards you at any point whatsoever. Let that be a lesson though never post anything humorous. As you said apparently women can't tell jokes. So the vegetable joke was bound to fall flat. Just aswell you didn't deploy an asterisked expletive in your punchline or they would have come at you from all sides. I'm amazed noone here is dissecting your personality in detail. To be honest I'm surprised you raised the "spectre" of Saturday as an issue for you when you have taken a lot more direct hits yourself on other occasions for which i can see your point.

Noel, I like Troll. I don't always or even usually support his positions ideologically, but I certainly will defend him when people are picking on his spelling, that's nothing more than petty meanness. I would have your back too, if you were subjected to ongoing nastiness and we very rarely agree on political issues. I have defended plenty of people on this site when they're being attacked or treated rudely, particularly the atw writers and I'm not going to stop.

Patty is more than capable of arguing her positions, but you guys pick at her for pure fun on a daily basis and it bothered me last night.

why let reality get in the way of a lazy political stereotype

Good one, Colm, and unfortunately true regardless of political philosophy.

I agree that you do defend a lot of people here, Daphne, including many you don't agree with politically. However, you also criticise any - real or imagined - aggression you find in certain people, while ignoring much worse of the same from your chosen coterie.

My point was that people - perhaps inevitably - complain about form when they mean content. DT - who I cite only as an example - is almost universally scorned and insulted by the Americans simply because he is very critical of many things American, even though his tone and style are exemplary.

The fact is that very many of those who write for this site are precisely the ones who pay least heed to the rules of engagement David announced several times. It's also absurd that such clowns - who are nothing if not prejudiced - are given the right to censor other people's comments (don’t mean Patty here).

Speaking of whom - I also think she gets too much abuse. I hope she comes back soon as I enjoy her posts (although I naturally take exception to her blatantly sexist attacks on her own gender as I like women – including Patty).

Actually just a small point but relevant - DT is not critical of many things American and i think that is where the misunderstanding comes from. He is accused of being anti American when he is not. He loves America from what i've read but is hugely critical of the present government.

Noel and Alison,

My observation, as an American, is that people come to the Internet with very entrenched views backed by years of support from within their own "communities."

America on the whole is significantly more conservative than Europe. One of the questions I recall Patty asking Noel on some other thread was something like "Where do you find all these people with left-leaning views?" I assume the answer is that Noel walks outside or goes to the local pub.

The point is that Patty never actually meets anyone from the left - the true, hard left - because, IMHO, they don't live here. They only come to visit, like Daytripper.

>>He is accused of being anti American when he is not<<

I agree, Alison. He isn't anti-American, but he is still critical of very many things American.

Which is of course fair enough. It should be possible to criticse the US, or the UK or Ireland without the respective natives taking it personally.

Just think of what the poor North Koreans have to endure!

>>I assume the answer is that Noel walks outside or goes to the local pub.<<

LOL, Alan. .. or reaches across the bed at night!

>>The point is that Patty never actually meets anyone from the left - the true, hard left - because..<<

I think you're right with what you say about the left in the US (but it wasn't always like that. Ive just been reading about the Wobblies!). These terms therefore mean little in cross-Atlantic communication. I also would never describe DT, as "hard left", - he's in business, isn't he, and has environmental interests etc.

AFAIC, there is only one real "leftist" on ATW, and he visits only occasionally (he's also religiously quite conservative, which for us on this side is of course no contradiction).

I have always felt that DT was 'always worth the read', a bright individual - just a bit misguided, especially when there is a sniff of conspiracy in the air, - but then as A F-M says, we all reflect our philosohical environment,to some degree or other.

As with most on the 'left' they tend to change a bit with maturity, so I have hopes for him, - of course - there are always the exceptions that prove the rule...

Noel,

"Which is of course fair enough. It should be possible to criticse the US, or the UK or Ireland without the respective natives taking it personally."

Sometimes hard to do without falling to the mistake of making generalisations...that's when the personal offence occurs.

>>.that's when the personal offence occurs.<<

Good observation. True, when we're talking about the people, past achievements, sporting prowess etc. But surely not for foreign policy, government or cusine.

>>As with most on the 'left' they tend to change a bit with maturity, so I have hopes for him, - of course - there are always the exceptions that prove the rule...<<

Ernest, if you ever despair about me, try to imagine that I was much much worse 20 years ago. What you're now getting is after the change.

Noel,

Your'e hopefull only half way there, there's time and hope for you yet!...:-)

America on the whole is significantly more conservative than Europe.

Alan, thats because truely left-wing politics has been the victim of state supression for decades.

Ernest a conspiracy is where 2 or more people act in secret to make something happen. conspiracy is probably to most active ingredient in domestic and foriegn policy, especially in the realms of defense and security. sometimes that conspiracy is a necessity and for the greater good (eg Overlord) and sometimes it is neither necessary nor for the greater good (eg Iraq, Iran-Contra or Operation Gladio). Another easy mistake to make is that simultaneous conspiracies are connected and related and that all cover-ups are related to the same conspiracy, JFK being a perfect example.

As the saying goes; "Only small secrets need hiding, the big ones are protected by public incredulity."

BTW thanks all for the kind words. im tyring to get out of the house to buy a washing machine and fridge freezer.

>>Im trying to get out of the house to buy a ... fridge freezer.<<

You see? I told you he is not at all of the "hard left"!

DT,

There is a big difference between secrecy and conspiracy...

That's how it starts - washing machine, freezer, - you'll be brewing your own beer next!...Good luck...

You see? I told you he is not at all of the "hard left"!

ill paint it red and put a hammer and sickle on the front.

There is a big difference between secrecy and conspiracy.

there is none at all. those involved in iran-contra were acting in secret and still consider their actions justified. yet it was a conspiracy. the only difference is whether people, upon discovery, consider it immoral, or the lawyers find it to be illegal.

DT,

"Lawyers' - now don't talk dirty around here - go wash your mouth out!...

Everybody: you give me a real run for my money and I greatly enjoy the debate and the challenge of trying to change the ill-considered, calcified opinion of many on the hard left (yes, I'm talking to YOU!)
And, except for gratuitous sucker punches, I do put my posts out in a provocative way, and do encourage response from the gut. So, I don't have grounds, really, for complaint...but I'm still complaining.:) But no hard feelings.

I just need to remove myself from the ring for a while. I'll be back.(like Clinton the Vampire)

Alan Frost- McDonald: I live in "Hollywood." Lefties to the left of me; lefties to the right of me. Bush hatred all around. "Friends" talk behind my back at dinner parties sometimes even though I'm not as caustic in person.

Alison: AC1 left a comment which I found threatening about using a hammer on a moron - which I deleted. No, it wasn't directed at me. Maybe he/she "didn't mean it that way." Uncalled for and unacceptable.

DT,

"thats because truely left-wing politics has been the victim of state supression for decades." -

Surely a good thing?...I wish there were more of it in the rest of the world...It falls more in the realm of defence than conspiracy. - and yes I do see that as good and moral act...and certainly not a conspiracy in my book...

Surely a good thing?

The depends upon whether you believe in the democratic process or not?

I wish there were more of it in the rest of the world...It falls more in the realm of defence than conspiracy.

How much more of it do you want? was 4 decades not enough? The overt and covert suppression of leftwing politics is what characterises the cold war era more than anything else.

and yes I do see that as good and moral act...and certainly not a conspiracy in my book.

See how it works; One mans conspiracy is another mans act of necessity! Personally i dont see how anti-democratic belligerence, terrorism and covert intervention are good or moral. Seemingly you disagree.

And one more thing....(laughing at myself, here)

Alan Frost-McDonald: I've actually known many on the far-left. I believe I once mentioned that I was once left of center. I studied french lit at Berkeley and lived and worked in France. While I was never an anarchist nor a believer in the scientific foundation of marxism, I certainly knew "anarchists" and marxists...I lived by Hampstead in London and homeopathy, water births, and travelers were all part of my mangled world. I know something of the left.

The left often makes the mistake of thinking that because someone doesn't agree with them than that person must be either stupid or ill-informed. Why not thoughtfully consider that maybe, just maybe, the right is right about some things.

Noel: "Which is of course fair enough. It should be possible to criticse the US, or the UK or Ireland without the respective natives taking it personally."

I totally agree. I don't agree with most of your positions but you do know how to turn a phrase and make music with your words. Thanks for that.

Patty - his was not the only singularly personal behaviour directed at another that was "unacceptable and uncalled for".

Patty, for you the "Left" is obviouly one big blur - covering everything from water births to North Korea. I'm beginning to wonder if ANYTHING you consider left is also so by my understanding of the term.

>>I don't agree with most of your positions but you do know how to turn a phrase and make music with your words. <<

Wow, Patty, that's a compliment!

Maybe some day you'll also feel more comfortable with the positions I prefer!