..or a few dead Jews. These "peace-workers" really are loathsome Nazis.

>>..or a few dead Jews. <<

How many people have been killed by these rockets?

I heard most of the interview, but not the start of it. For a moment I was startled because I thought it was an Israeli supporter (and this was the Today programme) but then I realised it was the usual Hamas-apologist, and all was well with the world of the BBC.

Peter,

Thankfully I missed it.

Good question Noel. The rockets and bullets flying in the other direction have killed many, including children.

it simply is not the case that whenever Israel relaxes the blockafe the Gazans fire rockets

The recent rockets were the direct retaliation for a killing of a number of Palestinians. I'm not neeccessarily condemning the Israelis for that - they say they were about to attack the fence and there seems no doubt those killed were "militants".

However lets be clear the Israels are not innocent in this - they kill a disproportionate amount of Palis. There is a track record or provocation in terms of blockades, withholding of tax revenue, or just outright violence which is ignored by some on this site.

Dont get me wrong though - Hamas are and were a bunch of idiots who have done a huge amount of damage to the Palestinian cause.

So long as the Gazans permit the rockets to fly, there should be no traffic into or out of Gaza. Period.

Andy,

Hamas are not idiots. Would that they were. They are deranged murdering scum!

Hamas wants the Jews and their state dead. Don't believe me? Ask them.

This is not like most other disputes in the world. One side wants peace, the other wants the peace that comes with an exterminated or subservient opponent. Harsh , but the truth.

>>Hamas wants the Jews and their state dead. Don't believe me? Ask them.<<

Phantom,

10 years ago, a NI Unionist could have said, with the same (lack of) justification and pathos as you, that the IRA and Sinn Fein want NI Protestants and the state of Northern Ireland dead.

You - yes, you above all - would have called them nuts.

And, as the presence of IRA/Sinn Fein in the government of Northern Ireland now proves, you would have been right.

This sort of action by Israel does nothing to help the situation. Hamas are in power in Gaza because the people had enough of Fatah and other people not getting enough of a compromise with the Israelis. So the people hardened their views. The opposite has to happen in order for peace. If Hamas aren't seen to be effective then the Palestinian people will turn to someone even more hardline. And then to someone more hardline. The cycle needs to be broken and Israel are the only ones who can break it by not haveing such a hardline themselves. Article 33 of the Geneva Convention states "No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed." Punishing the people of Gaza for an offence that they have not committed is a war crime.

The IRA and Sinn Feindid want the Northern Ireland state dead, and I believe that they still do. I don't think that they wanted or want ordinary Protestants dead- I've never heard or seen any sign of that.

Had they wanted to blow up kids in schoolbuses and the like they could easily have done it. They didn't want to do it.

The "Middle East conflict" is fundamentally different than an any other. Its not the same as NI, bad as that was.

For starters, it does not exist in a vacuum. The prelude even to the establishment of modern Israel was the harsh treatment of Jews by Arabs both in Palestine, and in the entire Arab and Muslim world over most of recorded history.

You will counter that they were treated horribly in Europe too, and you will be correct in saying that. But I'm addressing Palestine.

The return of the Jews from a long exile is an act of great justice in my opinion, though not without very real and harsh human costs to the Arabs of that region, now called Palestinians.

There has been a fundamental rejection by the Arabs and Muslims of a Jewish state. Hamas I think has said that they would do a truce, but not a permanent peace. Others have said that they would do a peace, but only if the state was "non sectarian" - not Jewish. If its not Jewish, then its not Israel. Can't be.

The same people who don't have a problem with Muslim dominated governments, Islamic republics, countries where other religions are banned - Saudi Arabia - their morals pop up from the slumber when in one corner of a vast world there is one Jewish state.

If NI went away, there would still be a very large Protestant state in Great Britain ( theoretically anyway, since most their lost their religion decades ago ) There would also be Christian and or Protestant states all over Europe and North America.

But if the one Jewish state is crushed, there will be no other Jewish states in the world. The Jews will be crushed and dispersed as in the times of Babylon. The few who would remain in a Hamas type state would; be as below untermenschen, below dhimmis. Their treatment would be in no way comparible with that of Israel's Arabs- where they can practice their religion, sit in Knesset, etc.

There will be no Jews in a Hamas government.

There are some comparisions to be made between Israel now and NI during the troubles, but they are very inexact.

--

Seamus

It is not a war crime to protect ones population. If you take from Israel the right to blockade and the right to go in and attack the rocket launching terrorists in full and effective fashion, then you have completely taken away their right to self defense. That too is against the concept of all natural law.

"It is not a war crime to protect ones population. If you take from Israel the right to blockade and the right to go in and attack the rocket launching terrorists in full and effective fashion, then you have completely taken away their right to self defense. That too is against the concept of all natural law."

It isn't a crime to protect one's population. It is however a war crime to inflict collective punishment on a population because of the actions of a few. That is a war crime. If Israel targeted those firing the Rockets, that would be fine. But they don't. They target civilian areas. You claim that Hamas are trying to wipe the Jewish people out in Israel, Israel is actively going about wiping out the people of Gaza by not allowing vital supplies to reach the Gazans.

>>but if the one Jewish state is crushed, there will be no other Jewish states in the world. The Jews will be crushed and dispersed as in the times of Babylon. The few who would remain in a Hamas type state would; be as below untermenschen, below dhimmis.<<

You are still arguing from the conclusion that Hamas will always want to descroy Israel (which is wrong, as I said) and then you go on to paint as reality a picture of how it will be if your fantasies come true!
One point in fact flows so easily from the other that it even looks like you're used to arguing like that!

I said that 10 years ago people could have said - and did say - that SinnFein will never accept the existence of the NI state. But now they are working well within its structures and have abandoned ambitions to change it by violence.

The same is true of Hamas, and you failed to show any significant difference, in the few places where you even tried.

May I paraphrase: "The IRA I think has said that they would do a truce, but not a permanent peace. Others have said that they would do a peace, but only if the state was "non sectarian" - not Unionist. If its not Unionist, then its not Northern Ireland. Can't be."

The context of the Arab states is parallel to the context of the RoI in the early 90's. They - all of them - would jump at any settlement that leads to Palestinian rule in the West Bank, and have in fact said so.

>>But if the one Jewish state is crushed, there will be no other Jewish states in the world<<

BTW, how much worse off are the Jews in the US compared to those in Israel?

Well, if they were trying to wipe out the population - which they're clearly not - they are doing a piss poor job of it. That's not exactly a population in decline.

If you are saying that you agree with a robust action against those who fire rockets, wherever they are, then we have no real conflict.

Noel

Will have to run off soon but

The Jews in the US are fine. I'll tell them you were asking after them

The IRA/SF made the welcome move away from violence, but let there be no doubt about it- in their ideal world of 100 years ago,there will be no NI. Only the means have changed.

Saying something is wrong does not make it wrong.

Hamas has never said, or indicated in any way, that it will ever accept the existence of a Jewish Israel. They have said that they will consider a ceasefire- a very different, temporary, thing.

The Muslim rejection of Israel has deep and fundamentally religious roots- different from the shabby "religious divide" in NI, which is a tribal dispute rather than anything theological.

The Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel. And even if SF said that they want NI to continue forever and a day, that does not mean that a far harsher and intolerant movement, which arose out of a very different culture, will ever contemplate the same or similar in the land of Israel. That's wishful thinking.

'However lets be clear the Israels are not innocent in this - they kill a disproportionate amount of Palis. There is a track record or provocation in terms of blockades, withholding of tax revenue, or just outright violence which is ignored by some on this site.'

Andy, well said,

-- in their ideal world of 100 years from now,there will be no NI. Only the means to achieve the goal have changed.--

--

What is the correct proportion of kills?

The US killed a disproportionate number of Germans and Japanese in WW2. Good thing, too.

>>but let there be no doubt about it- in their ideal world of 100 years ago,there will be no NI. Only the means have changed<<

Phantom, that's really a pointless thing to say, when you look at it:
In the ideal world of Parti Québécois, Quebec will be independent. In the ideal world of SNP there will be no more UK. In David's ideal world, there will in future be no more EU.

As long as SF/IRA or Hamas or anyone else chooses to work within democratic and legal structures, who cares what their goals are!

>>The Muslim rejection of Israel has deep and fundamentally religious roots- different from the shabby "religious divide" in NI, which is a tribal dispute rather than anything theological.<<

There is no difference. The Israel/Palestinian conflict is every bit as tribal as that in Northern Ireland. It's all about possession and dispossession, my tribe and your tribe.

>>The Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel. And even if SF said that they want NI to continue forever and a day, that does not mean that a far harsher and intolerant movement,<<

The IRA calls for the destruction of Northern Ireland. The IRA is no more or less harsh or willing to compromise as Hamas is.

Let Israel offer the Palestinians the territory taken from them in 1967 and you will see how dovish people will suddenly become.
But this has of course never even been on the table as a possible result of negotiations so far. The Israeli government would prefer to live in conflict holding on to thier stolen goods than in peace with justice.

The Palestinians were right not to accept anything other than the West Bank. The shame is Israel's.

--Let Israel offer the Palestinians the territory taken from them in 1967 and you will see how dovish people will suddenly become.--

I wish you were correct on this. I think we are dealing with a very different, far harder group than the SNP, the Parti Quebecois, and the host of this site. Or the IRA/SF for that matter.

Speaking of the origins of Israel, Israeli historian Benny Morris:

"Israel would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. ... There was no choice but to expel that population."

Morris continued, this was one of those "circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing."

Yes, it justified ethnic cleansing!!!!!!

""The Palestinians were right not to accept anything other than the West Bank. The shame is Israel's.""

'40% of the West Bank is now taken up by Israeli infrastructure roads, settlements, military bases and so on -- largely off-limits to Palestinians. Israel has methodically broken the remainder of the territory into dozens of enclaves separated from each other and the outside world by zones that it alone controls (including, at last count, 612 checkpoints and roadblocks).'

The Jewish settler population in the occupied territories, already approaching half a million, not only continues to grow but is growing at a rate three times greater than the rate of Israel's population increase. If the current rate continues, the settler population will double to almost 1 million people in just 12 years. Many are heavily armed and ideologically driven, unlikely to walk away voluntarily from the land they have declared to be their God-given home.'

Phantom
re: correct proportion of kills. Because of Israeli complete air superiority and advanced weaponry, we're often talking ten:one casualty figures.
I dont mind that if we were talking purely combatants, but in every conflict I can think of the Israelis kill more civilians than their opponents.
On top of that - they normally portray themselves as victims - whereas any objective analysis of the situation would see they were unremitting victors - Jews have gone from a small minority of mandate palestine to c80% of modern israel.

On a side point, a number of Hamas figures have recently said they will accept Israeli's existence.

David
Hamas are stupid. There tactics in the second intifada helped to rally international support for Israel and ultimately make a palestinian state less likely in the short term. They failed to take notice of the recently successful (at the time) example of groups like Hezbollah, which had successfully removed the Isrealis from their territory by predominantly and successfully targetting the Israeli military.

Andy

I'd like to see the quotes. If any Hamas leader said " If Israel does (x) we will accept its permanent existence as a Jewish state" I will eat my hat in Macy's front window on Christmas Eve.

I think that they are speaking of a strategic ceasefire.

Hi Phantom
There are a few interviews on the net where people like Meshall accept Israel within the 1967 borders. There also this recently from Haniyeh:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035434.html

You are correct in terms of them not guaranteeing it forever, but they are giving it a long term commitment. Israel has only been around for 60 years - how can somebody guarantee its existence forever? Essentially I think they mean more than a strategic ceasefire.

As well as that they probably have some crazy idea the state of Israel was at least partly created by mass violence against the indigenous population, and has occupied there land for at least forty years, so maybe think morally they dont owe Israel anything....

By the way - thanks for getting back to me on the cigar thing yesterday.

"Yasser Abed Rabbo, a member of the Palestine Liberation Organisation's executive committee and a lead negotiator on the prisoners' document, said Hamas had agreed to sections which call for a negotiated and final agreement with Israel to establish a Palestinian state on the territories occupied in 1967, including East Jerusalem.

"Hamas is prepared to accept those parts of the document because they think it is a way to get rid of a lot of its problems with the international community. That's why it will accept all the document eventually," he said."

"DAMASCUS (Reuters) - Hamas acknowledges the existence of Israel as a reality but formal recognition will only be considered when a Palestinian state has been created, the movement’s exiled leader Khaled Meshaal said on Wednesday.

Softening a previous refusal to accept the Jewish state’s existence, Meshaal said Israel was a "matter of fact" and a reality that will persist.

"There will remain a state called Israel," Meshaal said in an interview in the Syrian capital, in what appeared to be clearest statement yet by the Islamist group on its attitude towards the state it previously said had no right to exist.

"The problem is not that there is an entity called Israel," said Meshaal, who survived an Israeli assassination attempt in 1997. "The problem is that the Palestinian state is non-existent."

Is there a webcam anywhere near Macy's front window, anybody know?

Ah, Noel

I was very specific. He said many fine things but he did not say "Jewish state" did he now?

Phantom, do you seriously think Arabs would elect to call their state "Israel"?

No. That is my point.

Why should an occupied people be forced to recognise the legitimacy of its occupier?
Hamas, for all their other faults, seem to have gone as far as anyone could reasonably expect here.

This is fairly standard Israel tactic - putting conditions on the occupied - they have to be on their best behaviour for the occupation to end. The Palestinians should disavow terrorism and all violence - although Israel of course can continue to use that tactic with impunity.

In any other case, the pressure would be on the occupier. WShould we have allowed Saddam to stay in Kuwait until the Kuwaiti resistance ceased its activities?

(To re-iterate though, in practice I would condemn a lot of palestinian actions as immoral and counter-productive)

The one undeniably reasonable expectation - a cessation of hostilities from Gaza in return for the unconditional withdrawal from that territory - was not met. And that has poisoned the well almost as much as anything else.

If you reward good behavior with rockets and bombs, you should not expect much more good behavior in the future.

Well I would say the sanctions placed in Gaza contributed to the rockets in th first place, and then things spiralled into tit for tat violence.

However, I do take your point there - as I said earlier Hamas are stupid - their actions were hardly incentivising the Israelis to disengage from the West Bank. One could also look at the Israelis withdrawal from Lebanon as an event where their good actions were not highly rewarded.

One can contrast that with their withdeawal from the Sinai which has been fine.
The difference is that the latter was a negotiated withdrawl whereas Lebanon and Gaza were unilateral disengagements.

By the way - how did you find Israel on your recent trip?

I liked it...one week was way too short though, a mistake I won't repeat for a trip that long...went to Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Golan Heights, Sea of Galilee, Masada, Dead Sea....will chat more later.

>>"Phantom, do you seriously think Arabs would elect to call their state "Israel"?"

No. That is my point.<<

Exactly, so when Meshaal said that "There will remain a state called Israel", he was obviously referring to the Jewish nature of the Israel that means so much to you. QED

If it's any help to you, they sell big liquorice hats where I live. Maybe you can also get them in NY. They'll certainly come in handy for a person who makes such shaky predictions with such certitude! :)

At any rate, let's be frank, Phantom, you know as well as I do that even you don't believe what you are saying:-
On the one hand you emphatically reject negotiations with Hamas because you claim it will never recognise Israel, yet you were equally emphastic in calling for negotioans with IRA/Sinn Fein although they refused to recognise Northern Ireland.

In fact, even when it's pointed out to you that a Hamas spokesman (and to all objective observers the leadership of the whole organisation) is prepared to recognise Israel, you start back-peddling! The fact is, as everyone knows, the Palestinians and the entire Arab world are far more eager to get a deal that recognises Israel as long as they can get their Palestinian state than the IRA ever was to recognise NI.

This so-called, and phony, refusal of Hamas to recognise Israel, like the rockets over the border etc etc. are nothing but excuses for Israel and its backers to drag out negotiations and hold off any solution that would oblige them to return the land on the West Bank it stole from the Palestinians, while trying to look like the victims.

There are some things that fool nobody but a few Americans, and this is one of them.

Noel

Again, you think a "few rockets" are a negligible issue but you may feel otherwise if they were aimed at you.

And the last time I looked there were some here who were not in favor of the missile firing who aren't American.

We'll disagree as to the full nature of what Hamas said.

Andy

I wanted to see Jericho as well. There was to be a tour but they cancelled it due to insufficient number of participants

Had zero interest in Bethlehem.

Want to see Ramallah, but was not going to do without the company of someone who knows the lay of the land.

What I well may do is go back to Israel in the next year or so, and combine, in a longer stay, trips to some of these places, plus Eilat, and maybe segues into Egypt or Jordan, easy to do from Eilat.

Gaza is now Judenrein yet the pallies continue to fire rockets into Israel from there. Why?

I feel that Gaza is absolutely a forerunner of what you'll see in Israel if the guard is let down even slightly.

The current relative calm in Israel ( and that's what I saw ) comes at a price of a security fence and checkpoints and a tight lid on Gaza. The Israelis do not love any of those things. But without them - suicide bombings and terror spectaculars now and genocide down the line.

BTW, there's a decent size Filipino and other Asian population in Israel now. Why? Because after two horrifying intifadas, the Israelis feel that they can never trust the Palestinians ever again. The Asians do work that the Palestinians used to do in orchards, hotels, other places.

The loss of jobs is incalculable. But this is what the intifada wrought.

The complete hypocrisy and ignorance of some posters on this site is bewildering. People seem to think the Israel-Palestine conflict started with the first suicide bombing or rocket being fired by the Palestinians. Utter shite and nonsense. What we have today is a conflict which has been continuing through decades with intermittent periods of calm. (Few and far between unfortunately). Israel and by extensions zionisms conflict with the indigenous people of Palestine actually pre-dates 1948. Some idiots on here refuse to look back further than 1967 FFS. As Pinky highlighted, the very creation of Israel is based upon morally repugnant ethnic cleansing and murder. This actaully occured in still living memory. People somehow think the Palestinians should just forget what was done to their kith and kin and forget the land which stolen from them and accept the creation of a state which was estblished to soothe the guilt of govts in the west? Utter shite. Zionism and its sickening apologists expect the palestinians to be happy with roughly 20-22% of their former land to make up a Bantustan state whih they will graciously allow the Palestinians to call Palestine. The mind boggles as to how people can condemn the palestinians for attempting to take back using that which was used by zionism to take that which did not belong to zionism. Ben-Gurion himself admitted they were the agressors. Moshe Dyan, admitted it too (not to be released until he was dead of course).
All of this is easily accessible if one picks up a book. Israeli supporters must be allergic to paper !

RS - Well said. I got labelled a "Jew hater" just a few days ago for making much the same points. Laughable if it wasn't such an offensive slur. Because they have neither legality nor morality on their side, apologists for Zionism must use insults.

RS - Be fair, they're not all allergic to paper. Troll reads Batman comics.

Some idiots on here refuse to look back further than 1967 FFS

Not necessarily the best rhetorical device if you want to convince someone of something. Dale Carnegie would not approve. Neither would Empedocles,

What a rebuttal.

What a rebuttal

Noel already tore him a new arse on this issue earlier on the thread.

Scamper in packs if you like.

Declare yourselves the winner if you like.

Changes none of the facts.

You're dismissed.

"Changes none of the facts."

If i were you Phantom, I would make myself aware of the facts before comment deciding to comment on them !

Just some friendly advice partner.

RS - You are close to being called a "Jew hater" just so you know!

before deciding to comment*

(preview is my friend)

Petr, I've had it aimed at me before, by those with a paucity of argument.

"The fate of over a million Palestinians cannot be imperiled by a few rockets!"

I agree with this statement simply because collective punishment ranks among the lowest forms of "defense".

Come on dudes- I think best to at least try to convince people through the use of argument. I would respectfully suggest that labelling people may not be the best way to convince them.

BTW - I disagree with Phantom a lot re: Israel, but he isnt one of those here who shout out the label "Jew Hater" at the drop of a hat.

Phantom - I would have been v keen to see Jericho. I would love to see Ramallah too. I can understand your concerns re: wanting to go there with a local guide.

re: the cost of the intifada - i would say this is specifically more to do with the second intifada. The first intifada was a fairly reasonablt response to 20 years of occupation.