Prisoner of Ireland
Wednesday, May 2, 2007 at 01:09PM This is outrageous:
The High Court in Dublin is to hear a legal action on behalf of a pregnant 17-year-old girl, prevented from travelling to Britain for an abortion. The case, to be heard on Thursday, is a landmark challenge to the Republic of Ireland's strict laws against abortion.
The girl is four months pregnant, but sought an abortion after learning her child wouldn't survive after birth. She is in the care of the Republic's health service which issued an order preventing her going to Britain.
The Irish health service needs to introduce mental health checks for its employees. Whoever made the decision to detain this girl, to prevent her from travelling to the UK to do what is perfectly legal here, deserves the sack. Whoever thought it a good idea to give the Irish health service the despotic power to prevent free-born people from travelling out of Ireland deserves a horsewhipping. I’ve stated my opinion on abortion here previously and don’t intend to go around that particular mulberry bush again. For the record, I oppose it with very few exceptions. But for this girl to be prevented from travelling is monstrous. She has committed no crime and intends to commit no crime in the UK.
Right now she is, de facto, a political prisoner. Her intentions displease those who have presumed power over her so she has been deprived of her liberty. The case is to be resolved on Thursday. If she is not freed immediately it will be to Ireland’s shame and disgrace.
View Printer Friendly Version
Reader Comments (85)
I agree with everything you've said.I don't understand how it can possibly be legal to prevent someone who is not a criminal from travelling from Ireland to the UK.
Remember - she is a child (and a ward of court AFAIK.)
Ross,
as Madradin says, she is a ward of court.
This is the same health service that also pays for women to travel to Britain for abortions in certain cases.
Very sorry for this girl but serves the spineless legislators right. They have been dodging the abortion bullet in Ireland for the last 25 years, the chickens were bound to come home to roost sometime.
Watch them all run like terrified rabbits during the election campaign when approached on the issue.
Labour are the most hypocritical of them all.
This poor girl will end up in counselling and on depression tablets for many years. That is if she doesn't commit suicide. At least she wasn't bundled off to one of those "laundries" they made that film about.
>>as Madradin says, she is a ward of court.<<
Exactly. She is not an adult in the eyes of the state yet and they are acting in her best interests. The state could not prevent anyone over the age of 18 from travelling to the UK for an abortion.
Its one of those complex cases. The girl could have travelled to the UK for an abortion if she had claimed that she was suicidal, but she has denied that she must be trying to prove a point with the state. Its a cop-out I know, but she would have had her abortion.
I just dont see any chance of the ROI ever settling the abortion issue. It will always be a fudge. It continues to be a devise subject.
The child will be born unconscious and die within a few days so even the disabled/quality of life objections to abortion are immaterial here. This distressing case could be the very one that effects a change... must frighten the wits out of the electioneering politicians
Is this inquiry the type that Irish women/girls who appear to be with child face at departure from immigration authorities?
In any event, Madradin got it correct, when it comes to minors the State has a stronger say than if she were an adult.
I would also say that the state of many Irish Hospitals should be a continuing front page expose of the major newspapers. Conditions are deplorable, and I won't even mention the nursing home scandals.
Mahons,
no pregnant women face inquiries from emigration authorities. This girl is in care.
That explains it.
Am I the only one wondering at the sheer lack of information al-Beeb is providing on why the girl was prevented from travelling? It's possible that the speculation here is correct and that it's to prevent her from having the abortion, but we have no proof positive.
Worth bearing in mind, perhaps?
I hope you are right Sara but I pity this child that she has to be a case in point and suffer so tragically.
"...the absolute "right" to abortion can only be grounded in a metaphysic that maintains that human beings are literally worthless. The absurd outcome for the leftist is that human rights are more precious than human beings. For the leftist, the right to abortion is sacred, while the human being to whom the right is owed is of no more value than a decayed tooth.
But stranger beliefs can be found on the left, the reason being that it is fundamentally rooted in the absolutization of the relative, which is the essence of the absurd."
>>It's possible that the speculation here is correct and that it's to prevent her from having the abortion, but we have no proof positive.<<
No, as Garfield has pointed out, girls leave for the UK every day for abortions and are not stopped. The girl is a ward of the state and the decision has been made in that context.
Regarding the Beebs lack of info, its not just them... we do not fully know the context of the decision.
Is abortion legal in NI ?
Yes, but restricted :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3049652.stm
http://www.abortionrights.org.uk/content/view/119/70/
Well, if the authorities thought she was going abroad to commit what would be a crime in the Republic, they have every right to stop her. We do it with our own crims, some of them anyway. Like football fans and perverts.
And the other thing is, the UK doesn't give abortion on demand either, or at least it's not supposed to. It's against the law in fact.
Kloot,
the overwhelming majority of women from Northern Ireland looking for an abortion have to take the boat to Britain too.
The unionist government opted out of the 1967 Abortion Act.
As Madradin's article says, 40,000 women, which I assume is since Northern Ireland opted out.
The hypocrisy is cross-border on this issue.
Cheers Madradin
>>Abortions in the province are still strictly limited, and can only go ahead if it can be proved that the pregnancy would damage the physical or mental health of the woman.<<
The following is a cut from the story. This seems very similar to what the position currently is in Irish law.
Its a very hard case really. How to legislate for these very hard cases. There does not appear to be a clear majority in favour of abortion in the ROI. Most people seem in favour of abortion under certain circumstances, but again, how do you formulate a question to put to the public on abortion, which might give an answer to solve the problem. A simple Yes/No is likely to end in defeat and hence the government has to try and find a formula of words which catches the publics mood.
>>I would also say that the state of many Irish Hospitals should be a continuing front page expose of the major newspapers. Conditions are deplorable, and I won't even mention the nursing home scandals.<<
Here, Here.. Well said.
>>Here, Here.. Well said.<<
:) or Hear Hear even !
>>the overwhelming majority of women from Northern Ireland looking for an abortion have to take the boat to Britain too.<<
Thats what I thought alright. I wasnt sure of how they managed to opt out of it. I wonder if its the case that opposition to abortion would most likely be much stronger in NI than the ROI, religion featuring less and less in the ROI. Not that this is purely a religious issue, it isnt.
"The girl is four months pregnant, but sought an abortion after learning her child wouldn't survive after birth"
So the idea was she would have an abortion because the child wouldn't survive. That can't be an argument in favour of the proposed abortion - it's the wrong way round. Putting it starkly, she only had to wait and the child would die anyway. I thought the argument was usually in favour of an abortion where the child is going to live.
Kloot,
abortion is a political grenade on both sides of the border.
The only difference is that we have already had 20 years of sometimes bitter discussions as well as 3 referundums on the issue. This whole discussion is still under the radar in Northern Ireland ever since the 1967 sidestep.
I feel really sorry for this girl but she has made the choice not to play the fictional victim role and say she is suicidal.
Now I hope the judiciary do the business, wash their hands of it and say it's a legislative matter.
Up until now the grenade has always landed in their hands. Let's have the courage to legislate for this once and for all.
>>Let's have the courage to legislate for this once and for all.<<
That would be nice to see Garfield, but when our politicians dont have the courage to tackle the lot simpler issue of Incinerators because of public sensitivity, I dont hold out much hope of them dealing with the abortion issue.
Maybe its time that a forum for debate was opened on this topic within the ROI with the aim of trying to come up with a formula of words to put to the public
Terry - why should the girl have another 5 months being constantly reminded that she has a major problem inside her ? Not forgetting that she will have unnecessary body changes and the risk of post-natal depression?
Kloot,
the formula of words should be it is for the government of the day to legislate on the matter. That should be the constitutional amendment.
Mad, cos there is no threat to her health, and the baby might be ok, if the abortionists can keep their hands (and knives) away from it.
Orlando - the girl is not a criminal. Perhaps you need a mental health check also. Why should she suffer, at her tender age, the trauma of going through this pregnancy and then a death. People commit suicide for less.
>>why should the girl have another 5 months being constantly reminded that she has a major problem inside her ? Not forgetting that she will have unnecessary body changes and the risk of post-natal depression?<<
I wonder why she didnt use the suicide opt-out? I know its not the best solution, but she would have had her abortion. Maybe she is trying to prove a point.
Garfield, Successive governments have tried to come up with a formula and none have managed to do it successfully. If there was more opinion sought from the public on the proposed wording, then maybe the legislation that the government would write to bring the results of the consultation into affect, might have a better chance of success
>>the girl is not a criminal. <<
Nor is she being branded a criminal. The Health service is denying her permission, not on the grounds of criminality, but on the grounds that they are the guardians and for some reason they do not wish her to have the abortion.
Kloot,
they've tried to come up with a formula to put into the constitution, not legislation.
This should be taken out of the constitutional sphere and legislated for.
"People commit suicide for less"
Ye-esss, but doesn't that imply more than anything else that those people need a mental health check perhaps even more than Orlando? I had a good friend I'd known since my schooldays who committed suicide just a year or so back. No obvious signs, no note, no nothing. This does not mean someone's life is that bad, it might (might) mean that they have that little feeling of worth for that life.
Mad, I was intending merely to highlight the reason for the abortion - abort now because it won't live for very long.
the baby might be ok
anencephalic babies are NEVER OK Orlando. We are not dealing here with someone who dosn't want to carry a spina bifida or DS Baby to term.
I wonder why she didnt use the suicide opt-out?
honesty? Too young to have been corrupted by the way we live?
I know its not the best solution, but she would have had her abortion.
it's a sad reflection that her best option was to lie.
Ah, right Terry.
>>it's a sad reflection that her best option was to lie.<<
True.
Mr Smith - why did Orlando feel the need to mention perverts or football fan thus trivialising her and her situation? Or can you really not see that?
Mad, OT, but I thought of you yesterday. Our new RC bishop of Dallas was installed, a Bishop Ferrell born in Dublin. Our catherdral was full of bishops and cardinals and even the nuncio from the Vatican. And I was sitting in mass listening to the priest tell us this, and I thought "It's a shame Mad has to miss it!"
True story. :)
Mr Smith
Anyone who forces a 17 year old girl to carry to term a baby that will quickly die and never consciously experience life needs a mental health check - not to mention laws that will stop them
--Alison--
"Mr Smith - why did Orlando feel the need to mention perverts or football fan thus trivialising her and her situation? Or can you really not see that?"
Why he 'felt the need' to use those particular crimes as examples is beyond me. Perhaps asking him might be more fruitful. The point he made, though, is interesting. If they were, as he suggested, restricting her travel because they thought she would be travelling for the purposes of committing a crime, that might well cast a different legal light on it.
--Sara--
"Mr Smith
Anyone who forces a 17 year old girl to carry to term a baby that will quickly die and never consciously experience life needs a mental health check - not to mention laws that will stop them"
In one swift sentence there you have said that anti-abortion people are not only mentally impaired, but should be legislated against to prevent their... well, their thoughts from occurring. Interesting point of view, how exactly do you plan on defending it?
Charles - I would have had no qualms about attending that service. I'm sure God listens to prayers from inside chapels, churches, synagogues, temples and even mosques.
My original comment was to Orlando Mr Smith. Since you jumped on it i thought id point out to you the usefulness of trivialising her situation & how this is viewed in his minds eye. Hardly an 'interesting point' but i can see how you might view it as such. You see - you view this as potentially committing a crime. Bit like Minority Report. Thing is - She has committed no crime and intends to commit no crime - in the UK.
>>In one swift sentence there you have said that anti-abortion people are not only mentally impaired, but should be legislated against to prevent their... well, their thoughts from occurring. Interesting point of view, how exactly do you plan on defending it?<<
Good point. The "Right" to abortion that that some people claim, is not exactly on a par with other rights that people claim. Its a right that has a direct impact on another living being. Why would you think someone has mental problems when they have reservations or indeed extremely strong opinions against this "Right".
For me its an issue that I struggle hard to come down on either fence on. Its definitely not clear cut for me anyway.
--Alison--
"She has committed no crime and intends to commit no crime - in the UK"
True, but she is not a citizen of the UK, if I understand the ridiculously uninformative al-Beeb report correctly. She is a citizen of the RoI, and as such is bound by its laws and rules. Or not?
--Kloot--
A good point. Thought is restricted when you create the concept of thought crime, even if you don't give it that honest a name.
(Off for a bit, back later)
Kloot - IMO (and she can answer herself) Sara wasnt commenting on abortion rights generally but pointing to the uniqueness of this case, where a child is being FORCED to endure a significant trauma that could impact on her mentally. If the sanity of those who would freely force this wasnt called into question it would be odd. What Mr Smith did in answer was to paint Saras answer up as though it were a one size fits all in the abortion debate which i dont think it was.
Mr Smith -
"She is a citizen of the RoI, and as such is bound by its laws and rules. Or not?"
Yes, but only in the RoI. The Irish state's writ ends at its border and what she does outside of the RoI is none of the Irish state's business.
Pete,
she is a ward of the State. Don't you understand what that means?
Garfield
Duh, yes. But I was responding to Mr Smith's point. Do you not understand what he meant?
I don't regard anti-abortionist thought as mentally defective or even ,Kloot, as mentally criminal at all.I never said that. My comment pertained to this particular case and the behaviour of the authorities who are denying her her wish not to give birth to a baby who will quickly die. The girl is in care but clearly she and many others do not believe that the authority here has her best interests at heart.
Pete,
The HSE haven't any political axe to grind I reckon. They are just covering their asses because the spineless politicians have failed to legislate on this issue so nobody knows the situation.
As they are responsible for this girl, they want to make sure they aren't held criminally liable (if there is a crime).
Naturally the State are saying they don't have the power to hold this girl but as there is no legislation in place on abortion, who knows?
Better safe than sorry is what the HSE is thinking. Now it's for the courts to decide once again because the politicians refuse to grasp the nettle.