SHOULD THE TURBAN BE BANNED?
Tuesday, August 21, 2007 at 05:05PM Here's an interesting one for you to ponder. Ciaran Cuffe of the Green Party in Ireland has demanded that the Irish Police - An Garda Siochana - scrap an allegedly racist rule which bans Sikh officers from wearing a turban on duty. The London-based Metropolitan Police Sikh Association (MPSA) said An Garda Siochana’s uniform policy was 40 years behind the UK and accused it of racial discrimination. Unless the rule is changed Sikhs in Ireland will have no confidence in the gardaí, the group said, Mr Cuffe has written to Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy calling for the ban to be lifted.
I sincerely hope the ban IS maintained and that Conroy does not succumb to the PC convoy! If Sikhs want to serve in the Irish police then they must accept the wearing of the uniform of the Irish Police sand turban because IF the turban is permitted, what will be next - the Niqab? I am sure Sikhs make good police officers but not on any terms!
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Reader Comments (46)
The Shik man won't be taking up the job.
Good. A vacancy for an Irishman in the Irish police.
Should the turban be banned? Definitely not.
Should the police dress-code prohibit it? Yes.
I think the state should have the right to regulate the dress standards for police officers.
I don't think they are allowed to wear turbans in the New York City Police Department (ban on such headgear and beards). The Canadian Mounties however, have let Sikhs wear their turbans. The particular request may not seem too much of a burden, it is just if you accomodate one group you'll have to accomodate them all.
What Next:-
Will republicans remove masks.
Will Scotsmen wear kilts.
Will Japanese carry whisky
Will nudests wear clothes
Will PC Docherty give up drugs
Will UDA men carry guns
Will gays walk with a wiggle
Will police look younger
I applaud the ruling which has the support of the relevant Minister.
"Integration Minister Conor Lenihan last night backed up the Garda Siochana ruling, saying immigrants to this country must accept our culture."
I have no interest in what religion members of the Gardai are and I don't want to be presented with their affiliation when dealing with them. They should all wear the same uniform.
But let's be honest. This ruling is really all about the Muslims and not the Sikhs. It is the agression of Islam that forces us to draw these lines firmly.
Henry94 -actually it has been an issue here in North America prior to the advent of militant Islamic politics.
Actually, those of us from Ireland will appreciate the pun in "Ban Gardaí wearing the turban"
which reminds me..
>>They should all wear the same uniform.<<
Looking forward to seeing Garda O'Driscoll on riot duty in a Ban Gardai skirt.
Im with Henry on this. The dress code of the Gardai is for all.
Some immigration community wants to join force and die for Ireland. That means the Sikh is willing to lay down his life for Ireland. What else do you want?
Isn't that a sacrifice he is making, staking his own life for your country that he now calls his own country.
Like other countries, India, Canada, Britain, etc, Ireland can have dress code for turban too. Only blue or red or white coloured turbans allowed.
Yes, Rob, but if this is allowed, then those redundant ex-RUC Unionists down from the North will soon want to wear their Orange sashes over their Gardai uniforms.
Part of their religion too, you know!
I don't agree that if you make one ruling for one group you have to make the same allowances for all. You can make perfectly reasonable cases for differenrt decisions according to individual circumstances.
Colm: Then don't fitness requirements discriminate against the overweight? And how about handicapped Gardi? Or blind ones?
And if a group can get an exemption for dress code, why not other rules (no duty on the sabbath, no duty to protect an abortion clinic). Perhaps a Quaker wouldn't want to use force.
One set of regulations for all.
'One set of regulations for all'
It used to be like that for the schools, but once they let one group wear something different that was the beginning of the end.
Well, a school dress code is not as important, but I take your meaning.
mahons
You are arguing the opposite point to me. I don't accept the 'discrimination' charge that means we must have the same rule for everyone. It is perfectly acceptable to decide that the Turban is not a safety hazard but for example to also refusle the Niqab or Burqa on different grounds. Just becuase one decision favours Sikhs and the other inconveniences Muslims doesn;t mean it cannot be justified. You make the decision on practical grounds not religous.
Colm: Perhaps I tied my turban on too tightly today.
yes you must be careful too tight and it can make you Sikh :)
Colm
I'm not a believer in absolutes, but in this case I don't see why allowances should be made for religious or practical reasons. If you join an organisation that has a dress code then you should adher to it. It's worked for a long time why change it now?
Typhoo
I wasn't actually advocating allowing Turbans, just saying that if you do it doesn't have to follow that you must allow any kind of religous garb. My preference is for a single uniform code applicable to all. The wearing of religous clothing should be restricted to the private sphere and should not be allowed to overrule the demands of the workplace.
Colm: I take my hat (ahem) off to you on that one. A new low.
Mahons
Oh I could go lower, but I did I refrain from making comments about Muslim womens sexy little thongs, which were being discussed on another thread here today.
Colm: Admit it. You are upset because David went with the ATW mugs instead of the ATW thongs.
Mahons
I'd be happy to pose in the ad for the men's thongs, but I think it would result in the rare spectacle of Left and Right uniting on ATW to demand the Burqa not only be unbanned but made compulsory for certain individuals :)
Sorry, am I missing something here: "accused it of racial discrimination" Since when the hell was being a Sikh a race? Sikhism or whatever it is, is a set of opinions, it is no way a race.
Apart from that, if you migrate to a country, you accept its customs. Show them the way to the airport or to the barber.
muslim womens sexy little thongs being discussed here today.
Did I miss that one?
Please name the thread. Ann summers has got awfully boring.
airport or to the barber
Do you mean harbor?
Colm: I am sure David would hestitate to expose your shortcomings.
Harbour you mean? You are from this side of the pond aren't you Typhoo ?
mahons
Let's not get stuck into that lengthy and weighty subject again shall we :)
Yes colm I am, but I thought wtf had a typo error. Show them the way to the airport or harbor rather than barber. Why sould a shisk go to the barber?
And the thong thread please
To get a haircut of course . the same reason the rest of us go to one.
To cut their hair, so the hat will fit on. I thought it was obvious. Those turbans aren't that size for nothing.
Typhoo.
It was only a brief (pardon the pun) mention on the post called BACK!
Rob
"Like other countries, India, Canada, Britain, etc, Ireland can have dress code for turban too."
We are more inclined to follow the example of other republics like France and the US rather than British Commonwealth countries.
The British opted for multiculturalism. We are opting for integration.
Turbans are the yokes that sit on top of the head arent they. towel heads? I didn't know you needed short hair for one.
Henry, integration rather than multiculturalism, where is that? I didn't know france was any better of from ghetoising their immigrants than britain was, but I'll bow to your superior knowledge.
"Turbans are the yokes that sit on top of the head arent they. towel heads? I didn't know you needed short hair for one."
The other way round im afraid, they're there because they don't cut their hair. The hat I was referring to was that of the Gards if they want to join.
If the rules of the country don't suit you then that's just tough. Maybe Sikhs should look at their own rules before whinging about rules in a secular country. What is so important about wearing a turban? Does it really make you a better person in the eyes of God?
Sikhs have loyalty to the nation to which they migrate whilst muslims do not. Allow the turban and modify the dress code accordingly.
"Sikhs have loyalty to the nation to which they migrate whilst muslims do not. Allow the turban and modify the dress code accordingly."
Is that why they're rocking the boat of the state forces? Very loyal. Sikhs are loyal to nothing except their ponytails under their tea towels.
As a turbaned Sikh ex-West Midlands police officer , I was intrigued to come across your views on having (or maybe not) turbaned Sikh police officers in Ireland. Some of the comments provide me with a sense of irony as I used to worked with a certain officer (PC 2034 Mooney) of Irish descent who used to appear extremely proud to work with turbaned Sikh officers (myself and someone else when he was in the Met).My sense of irony is also linked to the fact that certainly in England, many Irish and Sikhs perceive themselves to have a lot in common namely generous hearts and open-minds, albeit this has not been so apparent reading some of pretty rough comments writtem about Sikhs - possibly funny but to an outsider they just read as ignorant and give a poor reflection of Ireland. Fortunately I have worked with many Irish people and know how open-minded and hearty they can be. If you would indulge me, the turban is a very critical although not total part of what defines a Sikh(women have the right to wear turbans, as they are seen as crowns i.e. we are all equal and each person is worth being treated as a king or queen- see sikhnet.com). It is important that people can clearly see you are a Sikh, not because you want to shove your belief in other people's faces (Sikhs should not fear anyone but neither should cause others fear) but it forces one to stand up and be counted where there is evil and wrong. The Sikh Gurus wanted Sikhs to develop courage (which wearing a turban helps to do as you stick out a mile) to make a positive difference. In theory, you should be able to go up to a Sikh (who is easily identifiable from their turban) to ask for his or her protection or help. The turban is an important part of creating those values of courage and steadfastness - you cannot shy away from wearing a turban or helping the defenceless. A number of the Sikh Gurus (of which there were 10), died sticking up for the rights of other religions. Many of the problems of today's society (I know some of you may also blame religion) are caused by a lack of moral and physical courage to act against wrong. The values of my religion instil in me the need to stand up for my beliefs and the rights of others against bullies and to act where there is wrong. Because I am so visible due to my wearing a turban it also instils a responsibility to act in a manner which increases others respect for Sikhism and not in a way which stains Sikhism. The turban and what it represents provides Sikhs with the energy and courage to do special things. The British recognised this power during the Empire - one of the most serious disciplinary offences in the Sikh Regiments was for a Sikh soldier to disrespect their religion because the British recognised that one who has no allegiance to Sikhism and the values that it brings cannot be trusted. (Would you trust your life to a friend who disrespected or back-stabbed their own parents?). Tens of thousands of Sikhs died fighting wearing turbans in the British Army which probably explains why in Britain it is not such a problem. The thought of a turban (or a piece of cloth) being so important may be alien to many of you but thousands of Sikhs (and I hope I would too) have died for this right - not because they were fundamentalist nutters but because they realised that you have to stand up for your rights and those of others. Suggest you read about the Battle of Saragarhi (google or wikipedia). Sikhs represent less than 2% of India's population yet the Prime Minister of India (as was a former President)is a Sikh. Likewise the Sikh regiments hold the highest number of Victoria Crosses or equivalent in the Indian army yet are only 2% of the population. Point being - the turban and the values it creates defines me and encourages me to do good. Finally it is not a cultural thing - Sikhs, myself included in the case of males for example, wear shirts, ties and trousers (and not kurta pyjamas) because that is the cultural clothing of the country where I was born and live (England). My turban is my religion - God does not need a visa to travel across countries and my allegiance to the Police and country was evident by the fact that I (intentionally) wore a black turban with a black/white chequered band and police badge on the front and swore allegiance to the Queen. The uniform of the police is one but is slightly adjusted (even the Garda compromises by having different caps for men and women). I understand about your fears about this being the thin end of the wedge but please try to learn and understand about others ways of thinking - whilst many of your contributors have tried, they have still taken an ethno-centric view and failed to understand HOW important the turban is to Sikhs - think of what is the most important thing to you as an Irish person which you feel is worth dying for? Well the same for a Sikh; it may only be a turban to you but to me as a Sikh it is worth my life and secondly the turban and the values it brings in the main is and has been force for good. The Sikhs are not posturing ( a Sikh who wears a hairnet and thinks that all this is posturing I would suggest does not really know that much - ask them to explain to you why Banda Bahadur's infant son was killed and his heart stuffed into his fathers' mouth by the Moghuls - posturing?) and it reduces the humanity of the Irish (who have travelled the world, also taken locals jobs in other countries and are proud of their heritage - witness the St.Patricks Day parades in New York and Birmingham) by taking a broad brush approach. All these brown faced, bearded turban people may look all the same to you, but no doubt you would be just as offended if I said that you must all be German Nazis because all white people look the same to asian people -As Sikhs we will keep our turbans but in the main we also want to integrate and contribute positively which may need some practical compromises from everyone. However if you think that everything should be kept strict then lets have the same rules for everybody - if you don't want others in your country to contribute then I suggest that you call all the Irish in the world back to Ireland and all the Indians etc go back to their countries and we can live in our own little silos - somehow I suspect that this uncompromising way of arranging the world would be unpalatable even to to most strict. Let's just calm down, do a little more research to understand each others thoughts and backgrounds and we may actually be able to live together without having created a false sense of insecurity of cultures being under threat!.
PC Singh,
Whilst I respect your right to refuse to take off your Turban, equally I respect my police force's right to refuse to allow its members to alter its uniform.
The uniform is a very critical although not total part of what defines a member of An Garda Siochána.
Members of An Garda Siochána stand up against evil and many have died to protect Irish citizens. They have done so a single unit, as An Garda Siochána, every one of them equal, every one of them the same.
You value your Turban as much as we value our police force putting the state first and foremost by putting on that uniform.
You get your moral strength from your turban, members of An Garda Siochána get it from everyone wearing the same uniform.
You ask what is most important to us? Our country and our hard won independent Republic.
These people go out every day unarmed to defend us, all equal, all the same.
Why should we put that at risk?
What gives you the right to ask our police to remove the equivalent of their turban?
PC Singh,
Interesting comments. Good to read a Sikh perspective on this issue.
I feel though that you believe that this is a case of Sikh's being victimised ?
Is it not correct that ever religion on earth has traditions or requirements that need to be met by the practiser ? This requirements can be diverse across all religions, whether it might be Ash on a Roman Catholics forehead or a turban on a Sikh, or indeed a burkha.
The problem with accommodating one religion is that it opens the door to accommodating all religions so that fairness is maintained. While it may be that the Uniform could be adapted in some cases to suit the religious needs of some members, its also likely that in some cases the uniform could not be adapted, for instance a rastafarian or a burkha.
Do you accept that point ? or are you of the opinion that accommodation can always be found.
If its the case that some can't be accommodated, then would there not be the unfair scenario where some peoples needs are being met and others are not ?
It seems more fair just to adopt a one uniform for all scenario. It avoids the complications of trying to adapt a uniform to suit all religious requirements. Its not that this is meant as an affront to these religions, which some will take it as, but its more an acceptance of the realities of the quagmire that it would open up.
In your case, how practical was the solution the Met adopted ? Could it be said that the Turban adopted was a safe for an officer, in terms of protection, as a proper police helmet ? Could the met have been exposed to being sued if a Sikh were to be injured in the course of their work due to not wearing a proper helmet ?
Would you as a Sikh have been excluded from riot duty? or is this kind of duty on a volunteer basis. What im getting at there is that you would not have been able to wear the protective gear? Do you think it fair that someone could exclude themselves from the 'Heavy' work due to the turban being an ineffective form of protection.
It is important that people can clearly see you are a Sikh, not because you want to shove your belief in other people's faces (Sikhs should not fear anyone but neither should cause others fear) but it forces one to stand up and be counted where there is evil and wrong.
Unfortunately this goes against the aim and goals of the Irish police that someone should not be able to determine the religious views of any members of its officers. The Irish have their own reasons for introducing this requirement for historical reasons and it has worked well so far.
To both respondents, firstly I accept the fact that it is the Irelands prerogative to make the final decision - my comments are on the basis that whatever decision is made should undertaken on the basis of informed debate i.e. with a full understanding of how important the turban is, not on the basis of "these towel heads want to force their culture on us why don't they go back to their own country" Reducing the debate to uninformed debate and insults such as towel heads which others have done adds nothing. Secondly I accept that it is a compromise solution (as many of you see it as the thin end of the wedge)but lets not think that the current uniform is without compromise. There are different caps for men and women officers. With respect to Garfield, at what point have the Sikhs asked the Garda to remove their uniform -rather the request is to join Garda in their uniform and so would expect a turbaned Sikh officer to wear a turban in the colours of the Garda and affix the Garda badge to the front of the their turban as I did in the West Midlands Police ( you can see my picture on many BBC websites). It comes back to whether you see it as a thing to celebrate that a Sikh for whom the turban is so important is prepared to wear the colours and badge of the Garda on their turban (their crown) or whether you see it as an attack on your values. Same turban two different interpretations. The Irish too have made forceful representations about their own religion - witness the Catholic Churches (mainly Irish) lobbying in other countries e.g. on the abortion laws in the UK and US - it is part of life that when you go to live in another country that you take up the local culture whilst also on some points you may wish for some flexibility on some points. What will you say to turbaned Sikhs who may be born in Ireland who want to join the Garda or Army - go back to where you where born from if you don't want to integrate.....someone wants to integrate and contribute to your society and some compromise is asked for - yes it may result in some further challenges (don't worry about operational issues, we managed to deal with them all without compromising operational effectiveness) but nevertheless a contribution is being offered. If you don't want it fine, there are only 20Mio Sikhs in the whole world and in the end after all the debate if you remain unconvinced they guy will have to make his contribution elsewhere in the world.
PC Singh,
I agree, people should not be labelled as towelheads or any other derogatory term because of their religious beliefs, and I dont think ive personally debated in that style although I accept that others do.
The Garda authorities did travel to other jurisdictions including France and the UK to research how this issue, ie religious identification, was handled elsewhere and it was as a result of these consultations that they came to their conclusions.
There are different caps for men and women officers
Small point, but in the ROI, there are no differences between male and female uniforms other then the fact that females have the option of wearing a skirt (not sure if men do :) ). Same hats though... again, small point
don't worry about operational issues, we managed to deal with them all without compromising operational effectiveness
Now theres a point that alot of people would take interest in, ie, what sort of operational issues arise and how are they resolved.
The make up of Irish society is changing and yes we do wish to see people integrate here and to make a contribution to Irish society.
PC Singh
Please stick around ATW when you can - your comments are a breath of fresh air :)