Friday
09May
TAKING THE PIP...!
Friday, May 9, 2008 at 05:52PM 
Hi folks! Wonder what you make of the tale of the man who spent 18 hours in police cell and has his DNA taken for the shocking crime of 'dropping an apple core'
Mr Hirst had just come out of the Post Office near his home in Swinton, Greater Manchester when he was accused of littering by a police community support officer. "I came out and started walking towards a chemist to get my wife a prescription," he said. "I got a tap on the shoulder and turned round. "There was a chap there in a fluorescent jacket, big sunglasses, and a baseball cap, on a bike, with a wad of tickets and a pen. He said 'Why did you drop that apple core?', and I told him I didn't drop an apple core. "He then said he wanted my name and address. "I told him I was on my way to the shops but would be walking back that way if he wanted to speak to me later."
The little pip-squeak community support officer is evidence of our rotten to the core set of policing priorities.
in Crime
Crime 
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Reader Comments (37)
So it happened in Manchester eh. Who would have guessed :o(
How those "strong int arm but thick int head" 'northerners' love to stamp on each other...
praise the lord I live down south.
So he was deprived of his liberty for 18 hours, prevented from contacting his family, had his DNA taken and has been charged .... on no evidence at all.
Again, yet again, thanks very much to anyone who voted for New Labour.
Personally, I believe the rozzer. Littering is an offence and the guy refused to give his name and address. What did he expect?
Huh?! When did fruit come to be classified as litter?
An apple is food, not trash. Mr Hirst ought to engage a lawyer toot sweet and sue the shreddies off the Manchester police.
Dawkins
So it's ok to drop banana skins and orange peel on the footpath? I don't think so.
Ages ago, I was stationed on a Navy base in Florida, and was accused of littering. Because a piece of paper with my name on it was found on the street. ( It probably blew out of a waste bin, I had not dropped it on the street)
The Warrant Officer who charged me with this wouldn't listen to my explanation. I elected to appeal, and was vindicated.
So, I know that "these things happen" wherein an overzealous litter patrol guy reaches the wrong conclusion.
But I was dealing with a Warrant Officer who was a moron ( X's name is on a piece of paper, therefore X must have thrown it on the street himself )
What we see with this Manchester incident looks to me to be one of two things- either the community support officer was lying, or Mr. Hirst is lying. There is no middle ground.
If the community support officer is lying, presumably to keep up a quota that the cops always deny having, then you have a very big problem. Someone needs to be sacked, and otherwise punished.
But if Hirst is the liar, then he should indeed be punished. And if he sought to evade the modest £50 punishment by copping an attitude and refusing to say who he was, then I'm not sure that I'd be too sorry for him.
Should those accused of littering or other bad things be allowed to walk away at will from an officer trying to serve them with a ticket?
Assume for the sake of argument that there is some litter on the streets of Manchester. How, exactly and precisely, would you have the local authorities deal with it?
Peter,
Yes, a banana peel is not litter/trash/garbage. It's part of a fruit. I have a chestnut tree that grows aslant a street. Can I be prosecuted when "my" conkers fall in the fall? My inner lawyer sez "no".
Jeeze, I wish I'd gone to law school like my parents wanted.
Just joshing, Mahons :0)
Did anyone who posts on this site vote Labour? If so, would you please explain yourself. And to those of you who think that David cameron will return our country to sanity, would you explain why you believe so?
Seriously, I'm getting a bit sick of reading how ordinary people are being targetted by 'authorities', then I read the complaints here and on other sites, yet nobody will dare suggest how this malign idiocy will be ended.
My card is out and I'm sending money to the BNP - and why not!
I repeat:
--Should those accused of littering or other bad things be allowed to walk away at will from an officer trying to serve them with a ticket?--
Does someone care to answer?
Phantom
No they shouldn't, but what is needed is consistency. Too often these officials will pick on weaker targets but won't dare challenge far greater and more blatant anti-social behaviours, that is what annoys people.
Allan
So you want to support the BNP because you want less law enforcement eh ?
Colm
This clown refused to say who he was. And he walked away from the officer attempting to serve him with a ticket.
Most people charged with an offense don't do that.
Here I don't see so much an outcry for consistent punishment as I do a lot of crying about the mistreatment of this self proclaimed victim.
If someone walks away from an officer trying to give him a ticket for a real offense, then he deserves to be treated harshly. So. unless the officer made the whole thing up, then too bad for this sad sack Hirst.He needs to quit posing for pouting photos with his little apple and learn how to use the litter bin.
Phantom
I am not disagreeing with you. There is clearly a lot of hypocrisy here from many of our regulars who usually rail against the soft on crime culture of our society yet complain when an example of toughness is demonstrated. However I think what most annoys many commenters is the inconsistency of the application of law. Too many thugs yobs and ignorant anti-social morons get away with far far worse behaviour , and if the police and judiciary were equally tough on them too then there wouldn't be such annoyance at examples like this.
--Too many thugs yobs and ignorant anti-social morons get away with far far worse behaviour , and if the police and judiciary were equally tough on them too then there wouldn't be such annoyance at examples like this.--
Well, I'm all for tougher enforcment of all laws relating to public order and safety.
You can't tell me that there isn't the equivalent of a Rudy Guiliani or (former NY police commissioner) William Bratton or ( NYPD strategist ) Jack Maple in all of the UK.
Or is it that the politicians or the people themselves do not want the laws enforced?
In my city, we got this thing under control in a short period of time, once the the will to do it was found.
It's do-able there. So do it! But until its done, I'm pretty happy to see the Hirsts of this world given a rough time. I really hate litter and want those who do it treated harshly.
Phantom
Sadly there aren't any political figures with the willingness and more importantly the power to effect real change. Britain is too centralised, so any genuinely tough localy elected politician would be hampered by national govt. interference and a pervasive and interfering 'human rights' industry.
Phantom,
Sadly, that is not the way of things in the UK. Our top police are not elected - they are the 'Chosen Ones', - and boy don't they let us know it!
6.31 pm
Colm
I hear you, but if if a liberal commie city like my New York can elect a Giuliani and let him do his work, then I just have to believe Britain can find someone similar --who is "liberal" on social things, but extremely aggressive on crime, including the so called small "broken windows" things like drinking/pissing in public or littering.
Your country has produced plenty of leaders over the last thousand years, and I doubt that the well has gone completely dry now.
Find the leader, or be the leader yourself! Unless noone in the UK wants an orderly and peaceful society anymore. Which I doubt.
Colm for PM!
Phantom -
What you say ought to happen is possible, but it would take a far more revolutionary character than someone who is merely 'extremely aggresive' on crime.
In the area of law and order/criminal justice, Britain has been a nation in decline for a century. It's easy to blame the government of the day (and I do for their part) but the truth is that the blame lies with an enemy class, of which 20th Century British governments were a mere part, and that enemy class has long set the agenda against civilisedm British values. It's not only a political agenda, but one which aims to completely eradicate any trace of Britishness in our land whilst delivering total state control over our lives.
That enemy class controls the media, education and academia, the judiciary, the civil service and all levels of government. Such is the control that not even Margaret Thatcher - a revolutionary figure and no conservative - could not dent this establishment nor even slow the cultural trend.
Whilst your concern is appreciated, don't be lazy. Your country is going the same way.
But Pete, you are completely at odds with Phantom over this matter. He completely approves of the action taken against this litter dropper, while you think he was harrassed by an overbearing authority figure. .
Yeah Pete
This litter-lout is morphing into a Rightworld hero. But you have a point with your 10.50, even if you exaggerate.
Colm -
I was responding really to Phantom's final four lines in his 6.23pm post. They stated a clear view whatever he said before. I suppose I could have been more succinct and quoted his final two sentences:
Unless noone in the UK wants an orderly and peaceful society anymore. Which I doubt.
To which I could have replied: "Your doubt is very much misplaced, Phantom."
Peter -
Whatever Mr Hirst may or may not be morphing into, I believe him. Scroll up and look at him. He doesn't look like the kind of man to throw an apple core away spectacularly. It's not quite empirical evidence, I admit, but it's as valid as your claim that you believe the PCSO.
I'll save you the aggro of asking me if I believe therefore that the PCSO is a liar. Yes, I believe the PCSO is a liar. I believe also he should be locked up for a few days as a lesson in state power then suffocated with his flourescent yellow jacket.
Pete Moore posted:
He doesn't look like the kind of man to throw an apple core away spectacularly
No point in continuing this discussion. Stick to your paranoia and continue to support this jerk against the word of a police officer.
If an apple core is to be regarded as "litter", then should not a cemetery be henceforth regarded as a landfill site?
No Peter, let's discuss this further.
Explain why you automatically take the word of the PCSO.
Explain why you've displayed not even mild discomfort at his loss of liberty - even if he is guilty.
Explain why you don't consider an appropriate response to be: "Sir, that's littering. Please pick it up."
Come on, explain yourself you authority groupie.
Pete Moore
I'm not an "authority groupie". But this guy has admitted that he refused to give his name and address. If this had been a "sus" incident you would be 100% in support of the rozzer, yes?
It appears that this guy broke the law and that you're supporting him in his law-breaking. This shows up the hypocrisy of Rightworld and its so-called support for "law and order".
Come on, explain yourself, you right-wing groupie.
If an apple core is to be regarded as "litter", then should not a cemetery be henceforth regarded as a landfill site?
So Tom, you would have no objection to dozens of apple cores being chucked into your garden? Or your neighbours' dogs answering calls of nature on your lawn?
Every year, apple trees across the country shed millions and millions of apples onto the ground. Every autumn, (I don't know the exact figure, but let's guess) maybe 500,000 tons of leaves are shed by trees all over the country. You'd think we'd be utterly swamped in apples and leaves by now, but somehow they all seem to disappear. I doubt it's the local councils at work. Or is there some vast secret 'apple and leaves' landfill site somewhere, growing bigger every year? I think we should be told.
Peter -
If this had been a "sus" incident you would be 100% in support of the rozzer, yes?
No. That's your question answered, but then I'm an honest man and don't run from questions.
Now answer mine directly and honestly:
Do explain why you've displayed not even mild discomfort at his loss of liberty - even if he is guilty.
Do explain why you don't consider an appropriate response to be: "Sir, that's littering. Please pick it up."
It's quite ok to admit that you're an unimaginative authority groupie who simply didn't consider these matters. Many people get off on ordering others around.
Do explain why you've displayed not even mild discomfort at his loss of liberty - even if he is guilty.
He refused to give his name and address to a police officer who had a reasonable suspicion that an offence had been committed. In your book he should have been allowed to walk free?
Sorry Pete darling, I gotta do it.............
It's a fucking simple apple core and he claimed it wasn't his. This is absurd. Last week I read about a toddler who dropped a bite sized piece of food on the ground that a bird swooped down and ate, and the mother got a ticket from your imbecile litter police.
While people should be careful of throwing debris out, litter is ugly, unsanitary and unnecessary, your policing has gone insane on enforcing neatness. Get a grip. Have you lost your collective minds?
Daphne honey
It's the law. You either enforce it or you let the jerks get away with it, in which case you'll be knee-deep in trash in no time.
Your call.
No, it's an apple core. Unlike, say, if you fly-tip an old computer monitor into a field and it will still be there in 5 years time, an apple core will be gone within a week or two, eaten by grubs, the excreta from which will become fresh fertile soil, thus helping (pause while I genuflect before uttering the sacred words of The Faith) ...the environment.
No
On a footpath it's litter. As is a banana skin. End of.
Absolutely. Actually, a mere 18 hours detention seems unduly lenient. We need to bring back the death penalty for this sort of thing.
Or at least let "life" mean life in this case. I know jails are overcrowded, but there's got to be some poor misunderstood rapist or murderer they could release in order to make space for this guy in the cells. After all, rape and murder are only mere "crimes" - this guy has done something far worse; he has committed sacrelige, he has offended against The Most Holy Faith, and for that, there can be no defence.
Yes Tom, hang the littering apple core bastards! Let's start a petition.
Hey Peter, have you thought that by eliminating all food litter, you are depriving the homeless and animals of sustenance?
You law-mongers may be directly attributing to a state of unnecessary hunger amongst the needy in the city, as well as a state of starvation amongst the wildlife and homeless animals.
Your environmentalism may be having unintended negative consequences for certain marginal populations.
Peter -
You say "It's the law." Maybe, but so what? Justice and moral actions are infinitely more important than the text of the law, and in this land justice and the law went their seperate ways long ago.
So, you still haven't explained why you don't consider an appropriate response to be: "Sir, that's littering. Please pick it up."
--Whilst your concern is appreciated, don't be lazy. Your country is going the same way.--
But my city is not. Our streets and transit systems are immeasurably safer and more orderly than they were twenty years ago.
And keep in mind that Giuliani had much of the same hostile press/civil service/"intelligentsia" to contend with that a British leader would have to deal with. He fixed things anyway. He plowed right through them with a ferocity of purpose that was amazing to see.
And keep in mind--prosecuting crimes like this is 100% part and parcel of the Giuliani/Bratton/Maple strategy that worked here. If you ignore "quality of life" crimes like this, you've lost the entire battle against disorder and crime.