Saturday
22Nov2008
THE BNP MAP OF BRITAIN..
Saturday, November 22, 2008 at 12:33PM 
The Guardian has a really cool click and learn map showing BNP membership across the UK. Just a few points;
1. Has the Guardian complied this using information that is the private data of the BNP? Is that not at best immoral, at worst illegal?
2. Isn't it interesting to see how BNP membership is concentrated in LABOUR heartlands? Could it be that core BNP support is from those on the political left? If so, why does the media insist of labelling the BNP far-right?
It would be nice to see a map of the UK showing where those who support militant Islam reside. Wonder of the Guardian be so quick to post that?
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Reader Comments (72)
Could it be that core BNP support is from those on the political left?
Ill take a stab at this. No.
Coicidence, huh? LOL - the one thing that hurts the left more than anthing is knowing that is THEIR own who flock to the BNP. Great stuff.
Yeah that leftie Allan@Aberdeen was all over the BNP like, well, white on rice, as soon he heard about it.
David - whenever you post on the BNPI don't recalltoo many of the liberal regulars voicing their approval, but I can almsot predict the half-dozen or so ATW-BNP regulars who will arrive to dance around their support of the BNP. And those fellows ain't leftwing.
Mahons,
Whilst I like to think ATW is the centre of the universe there is the other reality that if you check the political demographics you will find the BNP support if old Labour voters! Whoops!!
I treat all parties with equal contempt so I will dish it out to one and all that irritate me. But the issue here is the enthusiasm elements of the UK have shown in publishing private information.
David - did you mean in old Labour voters? I wouldn't doubt some going that way, but the BNP actual support (limited though it may be) comes primarily from the right.
From the BNP's constitution:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070629010001/http://www.bnp.org.uk/resources/constitution_8ed.pdf
(c) The British National Party is pledged to the maintenance of a private-enterprise economy operating within a broad framework of national economic policy. It is opposed to international monopoly capitalism and to laissez-faire free trade and free movement of plant and capital. Social stability and contentment is best
achieved by the many enjoying a personal stake in our society. Accordingly, we believe that private property should be encouraged and spread to as many individual members of our nation as possible. We recognise that Finance exists to serve the Nation and its industries rather than the other way around.
To me, that is a blue-print for national capitalism i.e. capitalism within a nation as opposed to corporatism which is capitalism without nations (and without any loyalty to any nation - sounds familiar?).
The reason why white,working class people are deserting Labour is that they are discovering that Labour has long deserted them. The working people of the UK did not rebel against the system in order to bring about the wonderful world that the Fabians had imagined for them, so Labour has decided to replace them with outsiders. Every component of our once conservative society has been infiltrated by pro-immigrant, anti-white placemen. If you doubt this, look for yourself at the CofE, local government, the police, the CBI, the 'opposition' parties (especially the 'opposition' parties), the unions, the broadcasting media - they've even nobbled The Daily Telegraph. Only the internet is free, but they're getting after that too.
The BNP supports the nation and the existence of our nation as being of the people who built it. Within the nation must be some degree of mutual support - a social aspect - but that supporting framework needs a successful economy and the BNP correctly recognises national capitalism as the system which will do so.
For example, 2:52.
The labels of right and left are over simplistic and don't serve us well. The NAZIs were supposed to be "national socialists".
I don't doubt that the BNP gets significant support from erstwhile Labour supporters. However that is about voting for sonething that they consider acts in the interests of the working classes and I think that the BNP badge themselves in this way.
at the weird fuzzy extremes left and right start to converge. BNP is a nationalist socialist party that draws on British, or to be accurate manily English, nationalism. Otherwise its ethos is similar to that of Sinn Fein that or the French National Front and the other fringe nationalist socialist parties that continue to fester in most Eureopean countries.
The BNP is labelled Right wing overwhelmingly due to it's attitude to race and nationality which is it's raison d'etre. Whatever other policies it has are frankly irrelevent in terms of what gains it support and how it is viewed by it's opponenets and the wider public.
NRG, would you tell me what you wish to see as the end result of the trajectory which Europe and the countries of Europe are on?
Allan, I fear that the EU is a route to the dissolution of the nation state to be replaced by many, many semi-autonomus regions under Brussels regime in which the balance of power remains largely within a non-elected bureaucratic body.
The EU is in many ways a reaction to WW2, as Hitler came to power by democratic means it is within the ethos of the EU that non elected elites should be estabilsihed as a balanace against unwelcome election outcomes and as a control against free speech that they do not agree with. The reaction to the Irish referendum and attempts to censor blogs is an example of this.
NRG, a reasonable answer, but how would you oppose this dissolution of our nation(s) if the formal Opposition refuses to oppose? I assume you agree with my assertion that the supposed Opposition is part of the driving process in the dissolution of our nation.
So the BNP exist in left wing heartlands. Deal with it instead of side stepping it, lefties. Shame on you for supporting such extremists in your midst.
The one US commenter here fails to get British politics again. Chattering Liberals and welfare socialists are leagues apart. Please learn the basics.
Mahons. From your mahogany desk in New York, you will just have to take up the cudgels with Margaret Hodge & Hazel Blears MPs, as well as the Labour back bench who all accept that the working-class revolt, aka the BNP, is largely composed of their own disillusioned Labour voters. There's no argument about that.
What you don't appreciate here in the UK is the well-entrenched 'class divide' that permeates right through this society. It has never gone away, and is in fact becoming more defined as that map above shows. The wealthy own vast forestry and agricultural estates in Scotland and the South West, and would never dream of associating with the working class, they employ them as beaters and ploughmen, and the thought of those low-bred BNP types turning up to spoil the party...yuck, the very idea!
Snobbery is alive and well in jolly GB, and just so long as the lower orders stay where they belong, in crime/immigrant-ridden inner cities, everything will be fine and dandy - ask any politico in the BBC or Parliament.
Bernard
Snobbery exists everywhere, and the well off powerfull and privileged all over the world do their best to keep the 'lower orders' out of sight. It certainly isn't uniquely or even primarilly a British thing.
Mahons is right and knows more about the political ethos of the BNP than you 2 care to aknowledge. Yes the BNP vote is largely made up of those who would have traditionally voted Labour but that no more makes them a left wing party than Vegetarianism can be called a carniversous movement just becasue most vegetrians used to eat meat. They move to the BNP becasue they rejest what the left offers them.
Could this be a Labor protest vote? If not, seems to me they would just vote Tory.
'. It has never gone away, and is in fact becoming more defined as that map above shows. The wealthy own vast forestry and agricultural estates in Scotland and the South West, and would never dream of associating with the working class, they employ them as beaters and ploughmen, and the thought of those low-bred BNP types turning up to spoil the party...yuck, the very idea! '
Bernard, are the lines blurring between the far right and far left? What you wrote above could come staight from the pages of the socialist worker.
I would never associate the fascist Nazi parading BNP with the left, but your words above would make one wonder.
'the thought of those low-bred BNP types turning up to spoil the party...yuck, the very idea!'
Do you honestly believe they are only 'low-bred?' Or would their Nazi associations have anything to do with the contempt sane people feel toward the BNP.
They are dangerously taking advantage of the discontent felt by the poor and underprivileged housing estate types that show up on the Jeremy Kyle show.
You're all wrong.
The BNP draws its support from the white working class which has voted Labour for a century out of blind, stupid, ignorant, stubborn and insane loyalty.
They don't care if the BNP is Left or Right Wing and most of'em wouldn't know.
Crikey, I know a white, working class fella, newly converted to the BNP, who voted Labour in 1997, 2001 and 2005 "because they'll get us out of Europe."
I almost spilled my pint when he came out with that one, but the awful truth is that's the level of knowledge we're dealing with here.
But what these people do know is that their country has been stolen from them, it's been changed and it's not the country of their ancestors. They hate it and they know well enough that the major parties have all connived in this revolution.
The bleating of other parties and politicians should be treated with the disrepect they deserve. If these parties hadn't screwed the working class for decades, if they hadn't given away our freedom to govern ourselves and cocked an arrogant deaf'un to every concern of every working Briton since the Second World War, the BNP would never have come about.
But now support is dribbling away from Labour to the BNP in its heartlands. They can see tiny margins in these constituencies changing the fate of the parties in the next election, and the BNP may just take enough labour votes to be decisive.
So now we get loathsome little creatures like Hazel Blears with her preposterous opinions and hideous visage, popping up brimful with concern at the plight of the working class.
Shove it, you dreadful women.
The following is copied and pasted from John Ray's documents, from the link below:
http://www.ray-dox.blogspot.com/2006/08/this-article-is-published-on-internet.html
In his article, Dr Ray shows that both Communism and Naziism have their roots in the writings of Karl Marx. Adolf Hitler was certainly to the right of Stalin - but he was still far far left of centre. The first few paragraphs of Dr Ray's Documents are copied, below:
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"True, it is a fixed idea with the French that the Rhine is their property, but to this arrogant demand the only reply worthy of the German nation is Arndt's: "Give back Alsace and Lorraine". For I am of the opinion, perhaps in contrast to many whose standpoint I share in other respects, that the reconquest of the German-speaking left bank of the Rhine is a matter of national honour, and that the Germanisation of a disloyal Holland and of Belgium is a political necessity for us. Shall we let the German nationality be completely suppressed in these countries, while the Slavs are rising ever more powerfully in the East?"
Have a look at the headline quote above and say who wrote it. It is a typical Hitler rant, is it not? Give it to 100 people who know Hitler's speeches and 100 would identify it as something said by Adolf. The fierce German nationalism and territorial ambition is unmistakeable. And if there is any doubt, have a look at another quote from the same author:
This is our calling, that we shall become the templars of this Grail, gird the sword round our loins for its sake and stake our lives joyfully in the last, holy war which will be followed by the thousand-year reign of freedom.
That settles it, doesn't it? Who does not know of Hitler's glorification of military sacrifice and his aim to establish a "thousand-year Reich"?
But neither quote is in fact from Hitler. Both quotes were written by Friedrich Engels, Karl Marx's co-author. So let that be an introduction to the idea that Hitler not only called himself a socialist but that he WAS in fact a socialist by the standards of his day. Ideas that are now condemned as Rightist were in Hitler's day perfectly normal ideas among Leftists. And if Friedrich Engels was not a Leftist, I do not know who would be.
But the most spectacular aspect of Nazism was surely its antisemitism. And that had a grounding in Marx himself. The following passage is from Marx but it could just as well have been from Hitler:
"Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew -- not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Jewry, would be the self-emancipation of our time.... We recognize in Jewry, therefore, a general present-time-oriented anti-social element, an element which through historical development -- to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed -- has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily dissolve itself. In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Jewry".
Note that Marx wanted to "emancipate" (free) mankind from Jewry ("Judentum" in Marx's original German), just as Hitler did and that the title of Marx's essay in German was "Zur Judenfrage", which -- while not necessarily derogatory in itself -- is nonetheless exactly the same expression ("Jewish question") that Hitler used in his famous phrase "Endloesung der Judenfrage" ("Final solution of the Jewish question"). And when Marx speaks of the end of Jewry by saying that Jewish identity must necessarily "dissolve" itself, the word he uses in German is "aufloesen", which is a close relative of Hitler's word "Endloesung" ("final solution"). So all the most condemned features of Nazism can be traced back to Marx and Engels, right down to the language used.
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Socialists are brilliant at re-writing history, even to the extent of labelling Hitler as "right wing"!
I almost spilled my pint when he came out with that one, but the awful truth is that's the level of knowledge we're dealing with here.
That's my point exactly. The Nazi BNP are capitalising on the stupidity of the poor and desperate of England and elsewhere.
Its the same thing as the GOP in the USA in some ways.
the BNP screams sound-bites to the poor and disenfranchsied about immigrants, the GOP screams soundbites to the poor and disenfranchised about abortion or gay mariage.
Fundies one and all, although the BNP has the Nazi edge!
David A -
Socialists certainly were brilliant at re-writing history after WW2. The Soviet regime had a genuinely brilliant propaganda machine which ensured that the world 'knew' the NAZI regime was 'Right Wing', a machine that used many willing dupes in the West.
It was so good and so effective that even decades later many people still believe this obvious claptrap.
Pinky -
You really can be are an arrogant and unknowing twit.
Or the Dems in the USA Pinky?.
'Pinky -
You really can be are an arrogant and unknowing twit.'
Pete, your descent into name-calling is always an indication that someone just rattled your cage.
A grown man that sits at a computer, admitting to sympathies for a nazi group, flaming hatred for everyone and everything, and calling his opponents names, what a sad spectacle.
Explain Charles?
It is the attitudes to race and national identity that determin the Right wing tag pinned on the Nazis and the BNP. Whatever other economic social and other big government powers they may have followed or in the case of the BNP, aspire too, doesn't register in the formulation of public and historic attitudes to their political positioning.
Colm -
No. Prior to WW2 the German regime was widely accepted as Left Wing. It was actually seen as being part of the progressive, radical tradition.
It was only with victory and the discovery of the extent of German crimes that the Soviet Union managed to disseminate the extraordinary message that the Nazis were of the Right. It was systematic, deliberate and began at Nuremburg.
Pinky -
Well stop insulting others with such drivel as "Its the same thing as the GOP in the USA in some ways." Yes, that was a stupid comment.
If it was meant as a wind up it was poorly done, if you mean it seriously, you lack self-awareness.
"The Nazi BNP are capitalising on the stupidity of the poor and desperate of England and elsewhere.
Its the same thing as the GOP in the USA in some ways."
You intimate that the GOP capitalizes on people's stupidity, but didn't mention the Democrats. I contend that the throngs of 1st time voters coming out for Obama were ignorant of his record and voted for his skin colour and empty rhetoric.
Are the BNP Nazis?? Associated with Terror? ( You thought you'd heard the last of that term?)
Maybe/maybe not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkefXuDq2XA
You intimate that the GOP capitalizes on people's stupidity, but didn't mention the Democrats. I contend that the throngs of 1st time voters coming out for Obama were ignorant of his record and voted for his skin colour and empty rhetoric.
Nope what I an intimating is that the GOP engage is Culture Wars- just like the GOP. Their success depends wholly on the stupidity of the people who believe them
You are just wrong about that, Colm old fella. Not only is the word 'snob' unique to these islands but snobbery exists no-where else in the world.
Class, as a concept, plays no part in say, America, where, if you are 'common' it makes no difference to your advancement in politics or life chances. It sure does over here!
If you ever get the chance, read Alan Clark's (MP) 'Diaries'. He absolutely personifies the ruling elite attitude to those socially inferior to him, and the Bullington Club set, the like of which exists nowhere else.
My point is: Scorn of the BNP by the metropolitan elite is predicated entirely on their - origins, voice, education, breeding and appearance. It's pure class hatred, nothing less.
When a 'toff' is found to have voted for the BNP, he is regarded as a traitor, renegade, maverick, or worse.
Charles's comment shows just how little he knows of 'life in divided Britain'.
And Pinky, I have to remind you that air ace Douglas Bader, who shot down and killed in excess of thirty Nazis, was a life long supporter of the national front, as was.
As for the socialist worker - never read it, and I doubt if they have any BNP members.
The culture war is brought upon us by the left. The left keeps pushing, but it's only a culturee war when the right pushes back.
PETE
Where did you get that idea from. The nazis were never seen as left wing progressive radicals. Why on earth do you think the left mobilised to fight the fascists at the battle of cable street in 1936 or the communists and social democrats fought the nazis in the streets of Germany in the late 20s and early 30s. You are the one being incredibly revisionist.
Pinky
Your comment about the GOP was wrong. They are a mainstream party in the US with widespread support across the spectrum. They cananot be accused simply of appealing to the stupid and gullible or of having the same appeal as the BNP.
Snobbery exists nowhere else in the world.
That, Bernard wins you 'foolish comment of the month' award. Congratulations :)
snobbery exists no-where else in the world.
It does when I go abroad.
Bernard, I disagree with you. The upper classes and lower orders have always got on famously. Both have a disregard for the trendy urban middle class.
In my opinion you're confusing your middle and upper classes.
Pete
I think he doesn't know his class from his elbow ;)
Colm -
I get that idea from what existed at the time instead of what is commonly accepted today.
That communists and others on the Left battled here and there with Nazis in the pre-war period isn't relevent at all. In politics the strongest hatred is often directed at those closest to home.
Commies are famous infighters, what with all their Marxists and Stalinists and Leninists and Trots and assorted loons and riff-raff.
Ot the other end, UKIP reserves it's greatest contempt for Tories. UKIP itself is derided by those patriots who realise that UKIP is a niche vehicle for the mediocre to get on the Euro gravy train.
>>Prior to WW2 the German regime was widely accepted as Left Wing. It was actually seen as being part of the progressive, radical tradition.<<
Pete once more disclosing that he hasn't a clue even about the history of his own country.
But that doesn't mean he never had. If he read Orwell's essays just two weeks ago and still comes out with this tosh, the problem is obviously just retention.
>>the extraordinary message that the Nazis were of the Right. It was systematic, deliberate and began at Nuremburg.<<
Colm, so lately granted I know, but you really have to take back that "most foolish comment of the month' award from Bernard, don't you think?
'Pinky
Your comment about the GOP was wrong. They are a mainstream party in the US with widespread support across the spectrum. They cananot be accused simply of appealing to the stupid and gullible or of having the same appeal as the BNP.'
Gosh you boys are really aggressive this evening!LOl
Anyway, yes the GOP are a mainstream party, but their success in recent years, was due in part to their manipulation of cultural issues, such as abortion and gay marriage.
What I would consider the mainstream GOP ( the intellectual conservatives) has run like the hammers of hell from those fundie culture warriors- which of course, explains the collapse of the GOP vote recently.
Colm
You only picked on that tiny piece! Shame on you. If snobbery exists elsewhere in the world it is because the English exported it there; after all we occupied two thirds of it for a couple of centuries.
Bernard you are talking crap shut up
Bernard
Sometimes the smallest pieces make the finest gems !
Bernard,
I think snobbery is a world-wide thing.
That's the trouble with you pinky. You think! Bernard doesn't ;)
To Pete Moore:
From: http://users.bigpond.net.au/jonjayray/posters.html
Dr John Ray has put together a selection of Left-wing posters from the national SOCIALIST german WORKER'S party - a far-Left and universally discredited organisation.
Here are some translated excerpts - SOCIALIST gems - from these posters:
"The first poster is about Nazi "compassion". It advertises the Nazi charity, the NSV. The text translates: "Health, child protection, fighting poverty, aiding travellers, people's community, helping mothers: These are the tasks of the National Socialist People's Charity: Join up"
Another poster: It promoted the 1939 Nuremberg Rally and the slogan translates as the "National Party Rally of Peace".
Another poster: "Workers with the mind and with the hands, choose the frontline soldier: HITLER!"
Another poster (from Mein Kampf): "Willingness for self-sacrifice" and the rest translates as: "Social works deserve no gratitude because they are not graciousness but the restoration of rights".
Another poster: "With Hitler against the armaments madness of the world".
[Yeah, riiiight, (or should that be 'Yeah, LEFT?') you can't have enough of this Leftist peace.)
Another poster: "With Adolf Hitler "Yes" for equal rights and peace"
Another poster: "With Germany AGAINST capitalism".
(So Nazism was Rightist? Only in the fevered imaginations of modern Leftists.)
Dr Ray wrote: 'As Mosley himself said in 1968: "I am not, and never have been, a man of the right. My position was on the Left and is now in the centre of politics"'
Poster reads in English: "Action. Britain's Youth Shall Not Be Massacred"
"Mosley For Peace & People."
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Facts are stubborn things and what ever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they can not alter the state of facts, and evidence. John Adams
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Yes, indeed!!!
Pete Moore
I'll ignore the others. What you say is true about the respect the two classes had for one one another, and GKC (the others won't know who that is) wrote about that affection between the working man and the true Aristocracy, not the upper classes, and certainly NOT the aspiring Thatcherite shower (she took elocution lessons to sound more posh) that infest the modern echelons.
What you would have come across when traveling is nothing to do with snobbery or social class but procession of money. They are quite different.
Those johnny foreigners would have thought Victoria Beckam as upper class because she was a millionaire, even though she spoke like a fishwife and never read a book in her life.
I agree about Blears. She gives me dire rear too.
Pip! pip!
David A......that shut em up!!!