THE CHANGING FACE OF IRELAND...
Wednesday, February 6, 2008 at 10:40PM Hibernia Girl has a fascinating post concerning the dramatic demographic changes happening in the Republic of Ireland.
Perhaps the key fact I pick up on is that the Republic now has around 300,000 Poles/Latvians resident in it. The total Irish population prior to 2004 (when EU expansion really opened the floodgates) was around 4m. So the Irish population, in the space of just a few years, has changed dramatically, with eastern Europeans now making up almost 10% of the total population! This is a HUGE figure, which dwarfs the UK relative figure of just 1%. It is the greatest demographic change in Europe and yet it seems to pass below the political radar. The Irish political elite seem relatively unconcerned, so wrapped up are they in the multiculti dream. I find it odd that there is not more of a public concern as the Republic will be changed out of ALL recognition as the numbers of immigrants pour in, and the demographics change the country in a way that has no historical precedence.
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Reader Comments (106)
David,
I guess it makes a difference when the immigrants are white, beige and pink.
Sometimes I find it very difficult to distinguish East Europeans from Irish—except of course the Polish girls are prettier :0)
Goodness,
Soon there will be as many Poles in the ROI as there are Irish in London.
Whatever next.....??
Well it has helped fill the Catholic Churches again as the youth had not been following in the footsteps of their elders. In addition, try to get some Irish folks to work in a factory these days and you'll see the reason the Poles found work. Lastly, Ireland's gains from the EU would make it a pretty poor sport if it turned on new members.
Perhaps better controls are needed in terms of numbers and immigration policy, but the global dynamic will leave no nation as an island unto itself, even when that nation is an island.
David,
Ya'll don't like them ppl anywho, so why are you botherin the issue. You're a brit, No ?
White European Catholics who like a drink move to another country where they meet more white Catholic Europeans who like a drink.
People in Ireland don't care because we understand the mind of an emigrant. We have been down that road ourselves.
Plus it is making Ireland, richer, stronger and as Dawkins says, prettier.
It also has the nice side effect of making unionists a much smaller side show on this island.
Who cares if we all end up speaking Polish, we haven't beeen speaking English for that long anyway.
There's something missing in this survey.
Eastern Europe isn't just Poland & Latvia.
The two are cited because the home population is some 80% RC.
But most of the other States have minority Catholics, with Orthodox & Muslim making up the majority, and these are not mentioned in the survey.
Northern Ireland is in for a big shock if it thinks it is just Poles and Latvians coming West.
The States of former Yugoslavia are also gearing up to join the EU, and they really ARE a mixed bag that will dwarf the Catholic/Protestant population.
Sorry, should have said Republic of Ireland.
Bernard,
Orthodox is Christian you know, just like the Greeks and the Russians.
Yugoslavia was over 80% Christian and even then all Yugoslavia only had half the population of Poland.
There are more Muslims in France than in the whole of the former Yugoslavia.
There is a sum total of 5 million Muslims joining a entity of over 400 million. Some dwarfing.
There is a high rate of immigration from Eastren Europe into Ireland but that is not a problem. It is a consequence of economic success. Having experienced high rates of emmigration for most of the existence of the state have no doubt. This is better.
If the people who have come stay they will send their children to our schools, play gaelic football and hurling, learn Irish and within a generation or two they will be Irish. There is no cultural issue.
The only issue with immigration is with Muslim immigration. They are the ones who may have another legality which they suscribe to above our own and a value system which may come into conflict with our own.
I'm happy that we have an understanding in Ireland that integration is what we want from immigrants and multiculturalism is not a road we want to go down.
So no turbans in the Gardai, no veils in the public sevice and no British anthems at our rugby Internationals except when England are visiting.
This from the Times of London this morning
A 37-year-old American businesswoman and married mother of three is seeking justice after she was thrown in jail by Saudi Arabia's religious police for sitting with a male colleague at a Starbucks coffee shop in Riyadh.
I don't think it is reasonable to hold that an influx of people who support such laws is good for a country. Surveys show that a large section of Muslims in Europe favour Sharia law.
"Who cares if we all end up speaking Polish, we haven't beeen speaking English for that long anyway."
LOL! Nice one, Garfield.
I'm already taking classes. Bardzo Dobrze!
Henry,
they learn Irish in Ireland's Muslim schools too. In fact, they have to if they want the government cash.
Henry94: If the people who have come stay they will send their children to our schools, play gaelic football and hurling, learn Irish and within a generation or two they will be Irish. There is no cultural issue.
What makes you think there won't be any cultural issues?:
From a Polish newspaper:
"The Polish community in Ireland appeal to the authorities of that country to make Polish the third official language, after English and Irish."
And, from the UK:
"THE Polish government wants Britain to make Polish a standard choice for British children studying a foreign language because so many are now living in the UK."
I, personally, have a generally positive impression of Polish people -- and if I had to choose between, say, 1 million Polish immigrants and 1 million Pakistani immigrants, I'd take the former.
However, the issue is not only a cultural one. It's very much a biological issue. As I've said previously:
[T]he whole point of this Great Game of Life that we're in is to pass on our genes successfully -- more commonly known as have kids and grandkids and so on. Your own genes, mind you -- not someone else's.
To do this successfully, you need resources. Most people think of money -- and, yeah, in this market economic world of ours, cash is obviously essential. But more importantly, one needs to have and have control of the fundamentals: land on which to live and produce food; water and other natural resources; to borrow from Marx, the means of production, etc.
We're not going to have or have control of any of that -- or not as much of it -- if we invite in strangers from different groups with different genes. We will have to share our resources with other, unrelated peoples -- and judging by the way things have been going so far, masses of other peoples. An even worse scenario is that we will wind up fighting over resources with other groups.
Northern Ireland is, sadly, an excellent example of how competition between different groups can be severe and long-lasting.
Hibernia Girl,
Ireland is already a genetic melting pot so what's wrong with a few more who, truth be told, look better in genes than we do.
Also, these people are related to us. They are European like the majority of us, they are Christian like the majority of us, they are caucasian like the majority of us.
Genetically, they are as much like us as the Saxon-infiltrated Dubliners are like the Gaelic Mayo folk or the Normans of Wexford and South Tipperary.
A thousand years ago 10% of the Ireland spoke French, 90% Irish and just 2% English.
Times change and we all move on.
We have more British than Poles, we have many Germans, French, Spanish and Dutch. Maybe in 100 years we will have 10% Irish, 10% Polish and 80% English. Perhaps we might even have a few German quarters.
Who knows and fortunately for us in Ireland, who cares?
It's great to welcome County Lithuania to the club. We want to be attractive to Europeans. We want to be a place where people want to come.
The Famine nearly destroyed us and we need to restock if we are to get back to our rightful place in the European pecking order quicker than planned.
The worst that can happen is we add a Slavic language to the English one imposed on us. The more languages the better, I say.
88% Irish.
The more languages the better, I say.
Rubbish. The minimum to expect of any immigrant is that they learn the language. The same would apply to you if you emigrated to France.
Peter,
I don't think Garfield meant that they shouldn't have a good command of the the English language, just that they can use their own language with fellow speakers. Most of the people coming from Eastern Europe I have found to have excellent bilingual skills.
Sorry folks I'ld just like to amend a line above
"....just that they can use their own language with fellow speakers and anyone else who wishes to learn those languages."
Garfield: Ireland is already a genetic melting pot so what's wrong with a few more who, truth be told, look better in genes than we do.
Also, these people are related to us. They are European like the majority of us, they are Christian like the majority of us, they are caucasian like the majority of us.
Genetically, they are as much like us as the Saxon-infiltrated Dubliners are like the Gaelic Mayo folk or the Normans of Wexford and South Tipperary.
Wrong on several counts.
Yes, the Irish are more closely related genetically to other groups in Europe than, say, groups in Africa or East Asia, but genetically we are still quite a distinct group and Polish genes are certainly distinct from Saxons (Germans) or Normans (Scandinavian-French).
Y chromosome studies (i.e. the male chromosome) show a strong differentiation between Germans and Poles, for instance. In fact, the frequencies of Y chromosome types differ right across Europe.
The Polish also have a certain amount of Mongolian genes mixed into their gene pool (Mongolian as in the medieval invaders from Asia).
That the genes of Polish and Irish and other European sub-populations are different from one other is evidenced by the fact that DNA ancestry companies can offer tests that distinguish between populations from different regions of Europe.
It may be that 10% of the Irish spoke French 1000 years ago (do you have a source for that?), but the genetic contribution of the Norman -- or even Viking -- migrants to Ireland (and Britain) was actually been minimal:
"[G]eneticists who have tested DNA throughout the British Isles are edging toward a different conclusion. Many are struck by the overall genetic similarities, leading some to claim that both Britain and Ireland have been inhabited for thousands of years by a single people that have remained in the majority, with only minor additions from later invaders like Celts, Romans, Angles , Saxons, Vikings and Normans."
The current level of immigration to Ireland (not to mention the UK) is far greater than at any time period in Irish history, and the genetic consequences are likely to be similarly greater.
Oops!
"was actually been minimal"=was actually minimal
:-P
Garfield.
In an ideal world your argument would be quite sound, but to compress different nationalities together in such a short time span has never been tried before on this scale.
Hibernia Girl's other slant on the argument is probably more salient...when resources get short people polarise and take sides; it's just human nature.
""[G]eneticists who have tested DNA throughout the British Isles are edging toward a different conclusion. Many are struck by the overall genetic similarities, leading some to claim that both Britain and Ireland have been inhabited for thousands of years by a single people that have remained in the majority, with only minor additions from later invaders like Celts, Romans, Angles , Saxons, Vikings and Normans.""
As far as I'm aware, that is still just a hypothesis though. Or has it been proven?
Hibernia Girl
I recently read a very interesting book which claims that the genetic evidence suggests that well over 75% of the current populations of Britain and Ireland are descended from people who re-populated the islands after the last ice age, i.e. at least seven thousand years ago. They arrived from different parts of Europe and of course some probably walked in before the land bridges were submerged by rising sea levels.
You can check out the book here
Bernard,
the plan is to be world leaders. In order to do that we have to lead.
Who said that creating a nation that is not only the envy but also the epitomy of Europe would be easy. It won't be.
Hibernia Girl,
and what genetic consequences will that be? More Chopins, plumbers who do a good job, astronomers like Kopernikus, people who are diligent?
Stop, you're scaring me.
My source for the language figures is Translation Ireland By Michae Cronin. It's in there.
Reg: As far as I'm aware, that is still just a hypothesis though. Or has it been proven?
My impression is that it's much more than just a hypothesis, but of course scientific conclusions and the data that they are based on are continually being added to and updated.
Sykes and Oppenheimer @ Oxford are the primary geneticists with whom I am familiar that have been investigating the genes of the peoples of the British Isles. Both of them have concluded that the genes of the British Isles are primarily "Celtic" (which is a bit of misnomer) and that migrations of Anglo-Saxons, Normans and Vikings contributed to the gene pool in only a minor way.
However, I think that the conclusions they draw about the significance of the Anglo-Saxon, Norman and Viking contribution to English genetics are not correct. It's believed that a full one-third of English genes are derived from the Anglo-Saxons, Normans or Vikings. That's pretty significant in my book! And, I would guess, accounts for the differences between the English and the rest of the peoples of these islands.
Garfield: Hibernia Girl,
and what genetic consequences will that be? More Chopins, plumbers who do a good job, astronomers like Kopernikus, people who are diligent?
I never said that the Polish aren't necessarily better than the Irish in many ways.
Seeing that the average IQ of the Polish is 99, while the average Irish IQ is 92, it's not surprising that they produced a Copernicus and we did not!
My point is that, in this Great Game of Life, the only goal is to pass one's genes on successfully. Full stop.
If the Rep of Ireland were to take in, say, 1 million Polish immigrants, we would just be giving up our land and resources to a population with different genes. We will be ensuring that other genes get passed on successfully -- not our own.
Any evaluation of the genes we're talking about (whether they're "better" or not) doesn't enter into it. Except for the fact that if we were to let in, say, 1 million Poles (or Chinese), they very well may simply out compete us because of their higher IQs.
A few high-IQ immigrants would prolly be good for Ireland and the Irish. Too many, and we run the risk of losing out.
Peter: Hibernia Girl -- I recently read a very interesting book which claims that the genetic evidence suggests that well over 75% of the current populations of Britain and Ireland are descended from people who re-populated the islands after the last ice age, i.e. at least seven thousand years ago.
Thanks, Peter! It's on my bookshelf. :-)
Oppenheimer claims that the Anglo Saxons are genetically insignificant in numbers. He also claims that there are no celtic traces in southern and eastern England because celtic culture was never established there - the people that Caesar encountered were germanic and spoke a germanic language. When the Anglo Saxons arrived their language would have been similar to the germanic language spoken by the British natives.
Also the so-called celtic invasion of western Britain and Ireland may never have happened as traditionally thought. Celtic culture yes, but not a large-scale invasion. He speculates that the celts may have brought farming and / or horses with them and achieved cultural dominance that way rather than by invasion. The dates just about fit, but in any case the genetic records for Ireland show that most of its present population are descended from people who were here thousands of years before any celtic artefacts appear in the archaeological record.
Hibernia Girl,
"My point is that, in this Great Game of Life, the only goal is to pass one's genes on successfully. Full stop."
Really? And why can't I pass them on with a Polish girl rather than an Irish one? You seem to think that our Polish friends won't intermingle, that the boys and girls who are being educated together all over the country will stick to their own and won't expirement.
"we would just be giving up our land and resources to a population with different genes. We will be ensuring that other genes get passed on successfully -- not our own."
Nobody is giving up anything, we are creating new resources. I see gains, you see losses, it seems. The Irishmen and Irishwomen will still be involved in the procreation process, only the gene pool will be bigger. This is an advantage.
"they very well may simply out compete us because of their higher IQs ... A few high-IQ immigrants would prolly be good for Ireland and the Irish. Too many, and we run the risk of losing out."
I think you are completely forgetting the human condition. Let's say we take your IQ figures, what will happen?
We will all be on this island together and people being people there will be "interbreeding".
The grandchildren of today's immigrants will most likely then have a slightly lower IQ than their descendants while the grandchildren of today's Irish will have a slightly higher one.
A much more level playing field for all. We won't have a superior Polish region and an inferior Irish one, we'll have a superior Ireland to the one that exists today. Slán Éireann, Cześć Irlandska!
HG,
"My point is that, in this Great Game of Life, the only goal is to pass one's genes on successfully. Full stop."
Complete crap. There are probably more goals in life than there are people. And the interests of genes tell us absolutely nothing about how we ought to live.
"If the Rep of Ireland were to take in, say, 1 million Polish immigrants, we would just be giving up our land and resources to a population with different genes. We will be ensuring that other genes get passed on successfully -- not our own."
Also complete crap. There is no such thing as "our own" genes. Each Irish person differs genetically from pretty much every other Irish person. Moreover each Irish person has more genes in common with the average Pole than they have different ones. That can also be extended to every person on the planet and indeed a few chimps.
And, once again, genetics tells you zip nada about how individuals ought to live or what countries ought to do about immigration. You're about this far >< from an argument for eugenics and rape.
Frank
You're about this far >< from an argument for eugenics and rape.
Not to mention a ban on inter-racial marriage. It's hard to believe we are even discussing this.
Hibernia Girl
Whatever impluse we have to pass on our genes is a personal one. I am a patriotic Irishman but I have to admit the national interest was far from my mind in any potential gene passing activity I ever engaged in.
>>The whole point of this Great Game of Life that we're in is to pass on our genes successfully -- more commonly known as have kids and grandkids and so on.<<
Well, Hibernian Girl, if that's the whole point of life as far as you're concerned, why don't you come over to my place right away!
As it happens, I've proven success at passing on my genes, so there's every reason to expect a romp with you will be genetically successful too.
Pigs must be flying! I think Frank has made excellent points, I agree with him.
>>Pigs must be flying! I think Frank has made excellent points, I agree with him.<<
I think those election results had a salutary shock effect on many people, Daphne!
From your 3:46 it looks like they made you randy Noel!
Whatever impluse we have to pass on our genes is a personal one. I am a patriotic Irishman but I have to admit the national interest was far from my mind in any potential gene passing activity I ever engaged in.
Imagine if this sort of thing became part of 'national service'. It might, to say the least, renew interest in the concept.
Garfield: Really? And why can't I pass them on with a Polish girl rather than an Irish one? You seem to think that our Polish friends won't intermingle, that the boys and girls who are being educated together all over the country will stick to their own and won't expirement.
I'm not saying you can't -- and I'm not saying they necessarily won't.
You seem to be assuming that everyone will happily intermarrying and there'll be no problems in future. I hope you're right. But, the evidence from human history is that this very often doesn't happen. Northern Ireland is a terrible but telling example.
Populations have real, biological, genetic interests that very often result in discord, not intermingling, between different groups.
Garfield: Nobody is giving up anything, we are creating new resources.
I mean real resources like land and natural resources -- not imaginary ones like the fiat currency, the Euro.
Garfield: We will all be on this island together and people being people there will be "interbreeding".
The grandchildren of today's immigrants will most likely then have a slightly lower IQ than their descendants while the grandchildren of today's Irish will have a slightly higher one.
Again, you are assuming there will be "interbreeding". Again, I point to Northern Ireland as an example of how things often, unfortunately, go between different groups of people. (I'm not saying I like it -- I'm just calling it as I see it.)
And, with regard to IQ -- as I said above, perhaps some influx of Polish genes would be good for the Irish population. But what about the Poles? Do you believe they (and everyone else in Europe) ought to spread out and "interbreed" with everyone else in order to create a more level playing field as far as IQ goes? Don't we need the Copernicuses of the world? Wouldn't it be good to keep a few, high IQ populations around rather than leveling everything out?
Hibernia Girl
Wouldn't it be good to keep a few, high IQ populations around rather than leveling everything out?
Maybe you need to withdraw that offer Noel.
Frank O'Dwyer: Complete crap. There are probably more goals in life than there are people. And the interests of genes tell us absolutely nothing about how we ought to live.
There is no other point to life than to pass on one's genes (i.e. have kids, grandkids, etc.). Perhaps the interests of genes ought not to tell us how to live, but the fact of the matter is that they do -- every day.
Frank O'Dwyer: There is no such thing as "our own" genes.
I refer you to the genetic evidence:
The Inconvenient Science of Racial DNA Profiling
We differ more than we thought
Diversity in our genes
Geneticists show that Irish are a race apart
Frank O'Dwyer: Each Irish person differs genetically from pretty much every other Irish person. Moreover each Irish person has more genes in common with the average Pole than they have different ones. That can also be extended to every person on the planet and indeed a few chimps.
This is simply flawed logic. You are comparing individuals and groups, two different classifications that cannot be compared.
Imagine saying that there is more variation between individual border collies than there is between the group known as border collies and the group known as rough collies -- and that, therefore, there is no difference between border and rough collies. Suddenly it becomes easier to see that there is a flaw in the argument, doesn't it?
Noel,
no worries, you just took me out of my happy bubble for a moment.
Hibernia Girl,
you are talking total tosh about the situation north of the border. Northern Ireland is completely mixed genetically, just not culturally.
Adams, McGuinness, Hume, McLaughlin are not pure Gaelic names, for example. Lots of indigenous Irish converted to Presbyterianism when the planters arrived and lots of Protestants fell at the Ne Temere hurdle over the years.
Somewhere along the line bits of the other side always get in.
My Dublin/Sligo/Cork/Limerick/God knows where else cousin could very well be procreating with her upright Bangorman husband as I speak.
Their little ones will be running rampage through the area's gene pool before you know it.
Might I also add that considering the Irish settled in Scotland in the first place, those settlers who did come back generations later would most likely be the same genetically anyway.
In the case of Northern Ireland it should also be noted that people in mixed marriages were targeted by the bigots. The natural inclination of people to meet and fall in love did not change. It was constrained. There is no natural urge to mate within your race or your hair colour. Those who promote such notions always have to rely on force to implement them.
Frank O'Dwyer: You're about this far >< from an argument for eugenics and rape.
That's cute, Frank. You know what that is? Schopenhauer discussed these argument techniques in his "The Art of Controversy" -- here's a "boiled down" version of them:
1) Carry your opponent's proposition beyond its natural limits; exaggerate it.
3) Ignore your opponent's proposition, which was intended to refer to some particular thing. Rather, understand it in some quite different sense, and then refute it. Attack something different than what was asserted.
I might also add that you bring up eugenics in order to try a little "guilt by association". Eugenicists were bad -- they talked about genetics and human populations -- HG talks about genetics and human populations -- therefore she must also be bad.
I dunno what to make of the rape comment, though. That just doesn't make any sense. ??
Nowhere here or on my blog (or,indeed, even in any of my thoughts or ideas) have I ever promoted eugenics or rape.
HG
"The whole point of this Great Game of Life that we're in is to pass on our genes successfully"
What? Says who? You say that as if it's some sort of indisputable fact.
Henry94: Not to mention a ban on inter-racial marriage.
I have no problems with inter-racial marriage -- people should be allowed to marry whomever they please (with the exception of cousin-marriage for some groups of immigrants which I have explained at some length on my blog).
You guys are jumping to conclusions about what I mean. I'm not arguing for a ban on inter-racial marriage or for eugenics or anything like that.
I'm simply trying to explain the biology behind interactions between human populations and why I am opposed to mass migration.
Noel Cunningham: Well, Hibernian Girl, if that's the whole point of life as far as you're concerned, why don't you come over to my place right away!
I'm afraid I'm already spoken for, but thanks for the offer! ;-)
I am opposed to mass migration - HG
So, presumably, you like to stop it, yes? If so, how?
Druken Cyclist: So, presumably, you like to stop it, yes? If so, how?
Well, getting out of the EU would be a start. Although I don't pretend that will happen any time soon -- if ever.
Frankly, I'm not optimistic about the future of Europe/the West.
Henry94: Whatever impluse we have to pass on our genes is a personal one.
Of course it is. I never said it wasn't.
>>Northern Ireland is completely mixed genetically, just not culturally.<<
Exactly.