THE EVIL MEN DO...
Friday, August 1, 2008 at 09:34PM This is a shocking story, I refer to the multiple stabbing and decapitation of a young man travelling on a bus in Canada..
Eyewitnesses on board the bus, which was travelling through a desolate stretch of Canada's vast prairies, said the victim was stabbed 50 or 60 times by the man sitting next to him. The attacker then severed his head with a large knife, reportedly brandishing the head to terrified passengers
Three points.
1. Did NOBODY try to help 22 year old Tim McLean? Did the bus passengers just idly watch this horror?
2. The culprit should be executed except in liberal Canada he will be more likely assigned a trauma therapist.
3. What drives a man to murder in this savage and shocking manner? Us Christians have a word for it - evil. What do secularists think?
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Reader Comments (91)
Firstly, as a Christian, David, I feel you should be reminded of John 8:7
"But when they continued asking him, he looked up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone at her."
Let him rot in prison for the rest of his life, so that the good people of Canada do not lower themselves to his level and sanction murder.
The latest piece of news on this story is that the guy was eating the victim when the cops showed up.
I think he's possessed by the devil.
Such a horrible story but it's difficult to blame the passengers as they probably didn't know what was happening til it was over. Also I understand the passengers held him in the bus. If they hadn't acted as they did the most likely outcome is that Tim McLean would still be dead, plus a few more dead and injured.
The word evil is generally a cop out that explains nothing - it means 'I don't understand and I'm not going to try'. I remember people used to refer to the killers of Jamie Bulger as evil. But you have to try to understand why things like this happen if you want to prevent them. Mental illness? Who knows. The information is still very sketchy.
Daphne,
I think you are right.
Good grief. Why do you think he is possessed by the devil?
Suppose for the sake of argument that this guy was driven mad by the mercury in his fillings. How would we ever find that out if we just attributed everything bad that happened to the devil without any evidence at all? Not that there ever could be any evidence of such a thing.
In days gone by people thought epileptics were possessed by the devil, didn't they?
He is most likely mentally ill.
About the whole execution thing, I don't even think he would be executed in the States for this. It doesn't appear to be premeditated, thus would be Second Degree Murder which isn't a Capital Offence.
I think he's possessed because he casually stabbed his seat mate to death, cut off his limbs and head, gutted him like a deer and then proceeded to fricking EAT him. That's beyond psychotic, it's unspeakably evil.
Since I believe in God and the devil, I think possession happens and this guy definitely fits the bill.
You need to go study up and read some devil books Frank. :-)
The killer was Vince Weiguang Li, who is obviously Asian in some form, so maybe Mr McLean barked at him and Li though he was lunch.
No... well, I personally do believe in possession, and as Daphne points out, the Diabhail could very easily be involved in this.
Daphne, his actions are not beyond psychotic, they are in keeping with it.
Psychosis is a rational scientific explanation for "possession".
David
Would Barry George have lived to see his name cleared today if the UK had the death penalty?
Henry,
Good point.
David and Daphne (sounds like a singing duo!),
If the "Devil" had possessed Mr Li as you suggest, why would he have confined his "evil" to the killing of a single innocent bus passenger? Seems to me like very small beer for the "ruler of this world".
The man is simply insane—or perhaps insane in a very complex way.
Because Dawkins, as Frank actually pointed out, in days gone by most mental illnesses were considered to be a form of possession. The Gospels mention Jesus casting out several Demons where by the person possessed showed signs that we would now view as a mental illness. It adds an interesting dimension that all mental illness is possibly a tool of the Diabhail to gain control over us.
Daphne,
"Since I believe in God and the devil, I think possession happens and this guy definitely fits the bill."
You also believe in free will, I assume. I wonder how you reconcile those beliefs.
" That's beyond psychotic, it's unspeakably evil."
As Matt said it is in keeping with psychosis. It is also possible that the guy was on drugs. For that matter it is even possible that the killer thought Tim McLean was the devil.
Matt, I think somethings in life can't always be explained scientifically. Like ghosts. I think the dead hang around sometimes too. I'm full of all sorts of hoodoo beliefs.
"You also believe in free will, I assume. I wonder how you reconcile those beliefs."
Frank, the Diabhail does not grant us Free Will. God grants us Free Will and the Diabhail is the anti-thesis of God. So it is a perfectly reconcilable belief that the Diabhail would ignore Free Will.
I do believe in free will, but the mentally ill and the possessed don't operate under that kind rationality.
I think they out to send in an exorcist along with the MD's and let both sides have a go at him. What would it hurt?
Daphne,
I have an open mind on these things but I have never experienced anything in my life to make me believe the existence of ghosts, possession etc.
My background is scientific so I rationalize everything.
Seamus, Daphne,
So this guy should not be punished or incarcerated then, is that not the implication of what you're saying?
After all if he didn't do it freely he cannot be culpable and I hope you're not going to tell me that the devil (*rolls eyes, but not in a possessed way*) can ignore free will but cannot ignore the bars of a prison?
But Matt, I am very science based as well, but there are certain things that science just can't explain.
Seamus, the things that science can't explain, neither can you.
Stop talking about global warming
</>After all if he didn't do it freely he cannot be culpable and I hope you're not going to tell me that the devil (*rolls eyes, but not in a possessed way*) can ignore free will but cannot ignore the bars of a prison?"
He needs treatment, Frank. If he can't be treated, either by a Priest or a Psycho The Rapist, then he needs to be incarcerated to make sure that he isn't a threat to other people.
Seamus, the things that science can't explain, neither can you."
No, but I have far more plausible theories than you do Frank.
He needs for there to be zero possibility of him ever committing such an act again. I know of one means of delivering this.
But Phantom, blowing up the world will make sure that none of us ever commit any crimes again.
I don't think killing people to prevent them doing something is a very moral argument.
I think he needs to be locked up somewhere, whatever the explanation for his actions. Crazy, possessed or just mean as sin, he still needs to pay for the life he took.
Jesus never had a problem with capital punishment, and I don't assume to be more moral than he is.
Thou shalt not murder. Not thou shalt not kill.
Matt, that's okay. I try to be rational about most things, but in a couple of areas I don't stay on board.
Daphne, if he is crazy or possessed then he hasn't done anything wrong. He still needs to be incarcerated for both his own and other people's protection.
Seamus, how would we know that the treatment by the priest (or anyone) worked? Plus won't the devil just go out and possess someone else...wouldn't it be better to leave him possesed and locked up. Or can the devil possess more than one person at the same time? Finally may I ask where you are getting this information and how do you know it is reliable?
The Gospels mention Jesus casting out several Demons
The Bible mentions the world and his wife casting out demons. It seems it was a major pastime in Jesus' day. At one point the apostles were concerned as there was a lot of unlicensed demon casting out going on. There is not as much call for it since the invention of penicillin.
No, but I have far more plausible theories than you do Frank.
Anyone can make up theories that are exactly as plausible as yours.
"Jesus never had a problem with capital punishment, and I don't assume to be more moral than he is."
And you are basing this on what?
We all know I'm agree with the death penalty. This guy won't get it though, he's in Canada.
Give me one quote where he criticizes it.
The occupying Romans employed the death penalty and yet Jesus said give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's
He didn't explicitly endorse it but he didn't criticize it. Even when it was employed against himself.
Phantom,
"Jesus never had a problem with capital punishment"
Well He had one fairly well publicized problem with it, given that He was a victim of it.
He also is reported as halting an execution, or did you think that stonings just stung a little?
Jesus never had a problem with capital punishment, and I don't assume to be more moral than he is.
He intervened to stop it in one case and of course he was a victim of it. Are you saying he was guilty?
He was not guilty. But he never said that the death penalty was a sin.
"Seamus, how would we know that the treatment by the priest (or anyone) worked? Plus won't the devil just go out and possess someone else...wouldn't it be better to leave him possesed and locked up. Or can the devil possess more than one person at the same time? Finally may I ask where you are getting this information and how do you know it is reliable?"
I'm getting my information from a number of sources. The Bible is a major one, though whether you consider it reliable is a matter of opinion.
"The Bible mentions the world and his wife casting out demons. It seems it was a major pastime in Jesus' day. At one point the apostles were concerned as there was a lot of unlicensed demon casting out going on. There is not as much call for it since the invention of penicillin."
But there have been exorcisms in recent times.
"Anyone can make up theories that are exactly as plausible as yours."
Fine Frank, give me a theory for the creation of the universe that doesn't involve God.
Daphne,
"Crazy, possessed or just mean as sin, he still needs to pay for the life he took."
What? If he's possessed or he's crazy then it's his fault?
Phantom,
"But when they continued asking him, he looked up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone at her."
Seamus, he has doing something very wrong. Mental illness (let's just stay there for a minute) doesn't mitigate the fact that he took the life of an innocent man and should face the consequences of incarceration as punishment for his crime.
It is not all about keeping society safe from him, he deserves to be punished.
The news this morning was very sad, it seemed to be full of stories of people hacking other people to bits. There was this one, there was the woman in Brazil, and (I think) there was some other equally gruesome headliner, though it escapes me right now. I just thought "what is it all coming to?" in typically Victor Meldrew style.
Anyway, to add my tuppence'worth to the "devil" discussion, as a Christian I firmly believe in the existence of the fallen angel known as Satan, whom the Bible describes as "the prince of this world".
Not every act of psychotic evil necessarily points to "possession" by the evil one; indeed, he may from time to time "oppress" us in various ways, but he cannot "possess" anyone unless they very specifically call upon him to do just that. (In a similar fashion to how Christ will not intrude upon our sense of self-possession unless explicitly invited to do so - but if sincerely invited, He will certainly take up the offer).
In the same way as I suspect that a certain amount of "dabbling" in the occult (no doubt in the belief that it was all nonsense and just a bit of harmless fun) may well have been a factor in atrocities such as the Moors Murders, I also suspect that it might have played a part in the background to this evil deed.
-MIGHT. I don't know for sure, of course.
"Seamus, he has doing something very wrong. Mental illness (let's just stay there for a minute) doesn't mitigate the fact that he took the life of an innocent man and should face the consequences of incarceration as punishment for his crime."
The "M'Naghten Rules" for the criminally insane, Daphne, state that if a person does not "possess a sufficient degree of reason to be responsible for his crimes" then he has committed no crime.
Seamus,
"But there have been exorcisms in recent times."
And there have been horoscopes in recent times.
"Fine Frank, give me a theory for the creation of the universe that doesn't involve God."
I give you the same theory that you have for the creation of God that doesn't involve an even bigger God.
"I give you the same theory that you have for the creation of God that doesn't involve an even bigger God."
God is timeless, a being that we can not contemplate, immortal, continuous with no beginning and no end.
God is timeless, a being that we can not contemplate, immortal, continuous with no beginning and no end.
Really? How do you know?
Seamus
That was never interpreted at the time or in the centuries since as being a prohibition against the death penalty. Which was practiced widely in his time and through the reigns of many Popes, who were fine with it, through the emergence of the Protestant reformers, who were all fine with it to my knowledge
In the incident he speaks of, the woman is no more a sinner than the men throwing the stones, some of whom were possibly her customers. It is a teaching example dealing with hypocrisy and forgiveness.
A murderer who kills someone blameless is not himself blameless. Society has the right to protect itself by executing such a person. The first act is murder, the second most certainly is not.
In my opinion, it was not meant to say that there should be no punishment, and it is not meant to say that if there is to be punishment that the punishment could not include the death penalty, which again was common at that time.
It is called Faith, Peter. I believe it. It is more plausible than anything science can actually come up with. God had to have been there in the beginning other wise nothing would have been created as science can't comprehend the idea of creating something out of nothingness.
Well, yes Frank. He murdered a man, for whatever reason, and still has to pay some price for taking that life.