TRAITORS IN THE COURT...
Saturday, November 21, 2009 at 12:08PM Did you see that a "retired US state department official and his wife" have admitted spying for Cuba for nearly three decades.
The former official, Walter Kendall Myers, 72, had access to top-secret government information. Under a plea deal, Mr Myers will spend the rest of his life in jail while wife Gwendolyn, 71, will serve a term of no more than seven-and-a-half years. She pleaded guilty to a lesser charge of conspiracy to gather and transmit national defence information to Cuba.
Myers has quite the track record...
Myers apparently sympathized with the Cuban ideology and revolution that put Castro into power. Court documents say he wrote in a personal journal in 1978: “I can see nothing of value that has been lost by the revolution. … (T)he revolution has released enormous potential and liberated the Cuban spirit.” He praised Castro as a “brilliant and charismatic leader” who is “one of the great political leaders of our time.” And he called the United States “exploiters” who regularly murdered Cuban revolutionary leaders. We presently have members of Congress (all democrats oddly enough) who have nothing but praise for the murderous commie as well.
Spies 
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Reader Comments (48)
shoot who did you say this guy was? Obama's new Secratary of state....
I think they should be drawn and quartered, same as Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard and other traitors.
Not all will know the story of Pollard, a US born Jewish man who, while working for US Naval intelligence, sent classified material on the Middle East to Israel.
This was a serious crime. He was convicted in 1987, and has been in prison ever since. There was thought that President Clinton would release him, but fortunately this did not happen.
You just don't spy for foreign countries - and you don't ever release classified information you are sworn to keep secret.
When I was recently in Israel, I saw an image of him in a Tel Aviv falafel joint. He is somewhat of a cause over there, but it has died down.
I support Israel, but Pollard betrayed his country, whose laws he swore to uphold, and he deserves what he got. if released, he would move to Israel and this would be the scene of a joyous public celebration. This ain't happening for a long long time.
>>You just don't spy for foreign countries<<
Very strange new tone from you, Phantom.
Have you not been trying to persuade us for years that Israel is the true home of Jews the world over and that every Jew feels allegience to Israel, and castigating me for suggesting that yours is a very dangerous position to take?
Troll - how odd that he would be imprisoned now that we have a secret marxist president, don't you think? I wonder what job he held during the Reagan, Bush, and Bush II administrations.
You need to start paying attention. The tone is not new in the slightest.
I've said that Israel is the ancestral home of the Jewish people, which it is, and that it is the one and only Jewish state, which it also is, and that most Jews all over the world feel a connection to it, which they most assuredly do.
None of this means that it is OK for an American with a Top Secret security clearance to reveal classified information to any other country without authorization, because he feels like it. The fact that Israel is a friend ( most of the time ) has nothing to do with it.
Pollard violated his oath. His actions compromised intelligence collection methods and could have endangered the lives of sources in the Arab world, etc etc etc.
On this, I've been as consistent as the day is long.
Next case
>>On this, I've been as consistent as the day is long. <<
Oh no, you haven't! You have gone much further than you now care to admit, claiming, as I said, that Israel is the home to the world's Jews, and that Jews naturally feel allegience to it. I am sure others here will remember the times well enough. It's frantic backpeddling on your part to pretend now that you meant only lamely that Jews "feel a connection" to Israel. Come off it!
>>Next case<<
Funny how you always use a phrase like that when you want the subject to change .. :-)
Jews naturally do support the existence of Israel, as do I, as do most Americans. That does not mean that they put Israel above their own country, especially if they are in the ( US ) military and have been given a position of great trust, receiving a security clearance.
Israel is not always right, and it is never acceptable for a member of the US military to reveal US secrets to them.
You're missing some fundamental points here, Noel.
>>You're missing some fundamental points here, Noel.<<
No, I'm not. You are just trying to divert the subject. We weren't talking about Israel's record or about Pollard's crime. My point was that you said Jews - more than others - feel allegiance to the state of Israel and that Israel is the national home of all Jews, including American Jews. You have in fact said that here so often Ive lost count. I even remember arguing with you – and others - that Israel is not their PRIME allegiance.
If it were - and I claim that it isn't - then Israel would not be simply "a foreign country" for Pollard, as you now say. You are contradicting yourself.
The fact that you're now very much watering down what you know you've been saying and meaning all alone more or less proves my point.
Basically I consider it a very ugly opinion (not least because it was a favourite of the Nazis) as well as being a very dangerous one (ditto) that Jews have - BY VIRTUE OF THEIR RELIGION (which was your very point of yore) - an allegiance to a country other than the country of their birth and a true “homeland” elsewhere. That allegation was behind all disasters for Jews, from medieval pogroms to the Holocaust. Jews have a right to be treated as all other citizens, whether of France, the UK, the US or wherever, and their prime allegiance or their "homeland" must not be called into question or defined in their name by spectators with just a political axe to grind.
Noel
Like all the usual suspects here, you either can't read or refuse to pay attention
I don't have time to educate yiz lot yet again today, but please recall the following comments often made by me. They're not that hard to understand-
The Jews are a people aside from being a religion. There are large numbers of Jews who could care less about the religion or who are openly hostile to it - but they are ethnically and culturally Jewish and proudly so. Half the population of Tel Aviv fits this description
I have indeed said that Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, an obvious fact, but I do not believe that I have once said that Jews outside of Israel owe any allegiance to it. I said that they support it's existence, which they most assuredly do.
I've not climbed down or watered down anything. Spend the rest of today going back over anything I've said here or in the other blogs, and you will not see anything that indicates otherwise.
You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.
Now, I am off into a glorious fall day.
Phantom,
There are quite a few British Jews who are critical of Israel's policies, as of course there are Israelis.
That's the nature of democracy.
I have met Jews who don't like Israel -or rather they don't like certain aspects of Israeli cultural expression.
I think what always needs to be borne in mind is the incredible fact of a people who still exist after 2000 years of wanderings, and now even more amazingly, they have their own State -however that happened!
What people in those circumstances wouldn't want to look after their own?
(The problem is that it's not in an obscure little corner of the world that nobody wanted ....but that might change once they got unpacked and put the kettle on!)
You are also right about them being a people aside from religious beliefs. But you can't -and the world won't allow you to separate the two.
I have friends who observe the "Haggim" (Holy Days) including Yom Kippur, but don't believe in God!
They say it is a cultural thing....
SPIES!!!
People have been spying for their country ever since time began and Politicians were created.
If you get caught, you should expect a consequence.
PS. Nice to know you've been there!
Danny Boy
Went there twice
Once was on a port visit to Haifa on the USS Albany
Second time was on holiday in 2008
The Jews and Israelis are very interesting - years back, I heard someone say that if you have two Jews, you have three opinions. That's pretty much true - they're not afraid to speak their mind, and that is a good thing.
Phantom I recall also you claiming that Israel is the home of the jews, something about shovels and jewish artefacts. Israel is the ancestral home of Judaism, not world Jewry. And Noel is correct, your beliefs help propagate the old 'double allegiances / suspect loyalties' canard so beloved of anti-semites.
I wasn't looking for the same old argument on this matter, where no one ever changes their mind. The subject is espionage against one's own country.
It's not " beliefs " , it is a fact. Israel is the home of both a major religion and of a group of people. There's immense archeological evidence for both, which disturbs the Arab narrative a bit.
If these facts are also troublesome to your political arguments, that is not my problem.
Phantom, you don't change your mind, even though you've been corrected many a time, Simply because you love to do the moth thing. No-one is denying Israel is the home of 'both a major religion and of a group of people', that people being Israelis. But you continually come up with this guff...
'I've said that Israel is the ancestral home of the Jewish people'
Israel is the ancestral home of Judaism.
'There's immense archeological evidence for both, which disturbs the Arab narrative a bit.'
Please Phantom, elaborate on this 'archeological evidence'. I have 'The Bible Unearthed' (among others)sitting on the shelf behind me...im all ears. Also please elaborate exactly how the 'Arab narrative' is disturbed?
RS
You don't listen, and life is too short.
Your friends in Egypt had a little kristallnacht against the Coptic Christians yesterday. Perhaps you can comment on that.
Phantom, I have no friends in Eygpt (that i know of).
But yet again you have ably demonstrated your tail tucking and moth-like tendencies. Bit embarrassing for you really.
Declaring yourself the winner does not impress.
No comments on a Muslim pogram against Christians?
Thought so.
Yo, Phantom The!
I visited a USN supply ship in Haifa back in '82.
(My goodness, I'm old already..!)
I've got the details somewhere, can't remember what she was called.
I mentioned in an older thread about differences between the US Navy and our Royal Navy. One was the polite informality and proud professionalism of the US sailors I met, as opposed to our much more formal structure.
You are right about it being the ancestral home of the Jewish people. They were scattered all around the Roman Empire and for 2000 years they were a dispossessed people, but there has always been a small Jewish presence in the land.
What the "Mr Angry's" of this world won't address is,
a)They had a land long enough to leave all kinds of stuff buried for archaeologists to discover..
b) They GOT KICKED OUT by their Roman landlords for being troublesome tenants, and refusing to eat
Sea Food pizza or salami...
c) They have REMAINED A DISTINCTIVE PEOPLE, largely because the mediaeval church kept them as
scapegoats ("Christ killers"), and they were CONFINED TO GHETTOS all over Europe.
d) lastly,
THIS IRRATIONAL HATRED that many harbour towards them, either hidden or blatant. Why hate a
people whose only real crime would appear to be that as a people they have SURVIVED, and remain
true to their origins, their religion, or their culture??
'No comments on a Muslim pogram against Christians?'
Phantom once you argue yourself into a corner, you always either tuck tail, or change the subject. man up for once and either support your 'facts' or admit you're wrong.
'They had a land long enough to leave all kinds of stuff buried for archaeologists to discover..'
Discover what? Tell me? You are aware that the archeological findings do not support the idea of a great Israelite kingdom, nor do they support the stories in the Bible.
'They GOT KICKED OUT by their Roman landlords for being troublesome tenants, and refusing to eat
Sea Food pizza or salami...'
Again another falsehood, as jewish academics themselves admit to. The ruling elite were exiled, the majority of jewish peasentry remained. It was both logistically impossible for the Romans to exile the entire population and monetary madness to think they did, as they would have been decreasing the size of their own purse by removing tax paying citizens. How do you think christianity and Islam spread? Are you saying there were no jewish converts?
'They have REMAINED A DISTINCTIVE PEOPLE, largely because the mediaeval church kept them as
scapegoats ("Christ killers"), and they were CONFINED TO GHETTOS all over Europe.'
True if you consider catholics a distinctive people...of course the proselyizing history of judaism is continually whitewashed from history by zionists in their vain attempt to prove a 'pure bloodline' reminiscent of Nazi ideals as well. The idea you seek to propagate provides ammuntion to anti-semites to view their jewish compatriots as ailen and other.
Danny Boy it seems you simply trot out the zionist narrative of Jewish history, without having any understanding of the actual history. And i thought you were Jewish?????!!!!!
There are plenty of good books out there by jewish authors who see through zionism for what it is, I recommend you try reading them, instead of history books with a zionist agenda. (Plus the bible, is not a history book, as science has shown)
RS and the usual suspects not only want to deny the Jews their homeland, they deny them status as a people.
The Jews have a longer history and are more of a people than any other group represented here.
Are the RS blatherings bigotry? You tell me. This thread was not initially about Jews or Israel per se, These guys can't help themselves.
Phantom giving a true account of jewish history (not the zionist one), of which proselyization was quite a big part, is not to deny anything, sure one of Mamonides parents was even a convert. I suggest you read a little more, Like Shlomo Sands recent work 'the Invention of the Jewish People' or Roses 'The Myths of Zionism'. There were thriving jewish communites far outside the levant before the story of the exile is alleged to have taken place. This you would know if you only desired to have a full account and not the narrow zionist 'history'.
Futhermore, you seem to forget it was you who brought jews and judaism into this thread, as people can see form above. You continued to propagate the myth about all jews being descended from Israel/Palestine, about them being one race/people which is precisely the sort of nonsense anti-semites like to spread, but which is unpicked by historical reality.
is Phantom incapable of admitting when hes wrong, will he ever man up, does he even have any knowledge surrounding the issues he likes to flap his gums about.....you tell me.
Intermarriage has been present in every religion and every people's history.
That does not mean that honest people deny this people's right to be considered a people, while not denying it to any others.
Unfair, and obvious
Jews take their identity through their mother, not their father.
Who's denying that there were Jewish communities around the Roman times, and probably before?
So yes, of course there are now Jews from every part of the world.
You see RS,
it was all part of a cunning plan to build their numbers up....
first so that Hitler would have something to do,
and secondly, there would still be enough left to return to their ancestral home..
whenever that came about...
PS. I mostly get my information from that book the Big Guy wrote....
You know, the One who invented the race..
>>The Jews .. are more of a people than any other group represented here.<<
Phantom, can you tell us by what reasoning you consider these guys and this one to be the same "people"?
Why not give your defiition of those vague terms "people" and "homeland" that you use so much.
Or do you also think you can't without revealing your inconsistency or undermining your own argument?
Easy. The Falashas are African converts to the religion. We have similar " black Jews " shouting from the street corners of NY.
I guess the usual suspects think that there are no such thing as a people or a homeland. Tell it to the Kurds, Tibetans, Uighurs, who are peoples without homelands. They're not peoples, and there is no such thing as a homeland, or nation. Got it.
>>"Phantom, can you tell us by what reasoning you consider these guys and this one to be the same "people"?"
"Easy. The Falashas are African converts to the religion"<<
Wel, is that all? Because you said that "The Jews are a people aside from being a religion". So what do you mean all the time by this "people"?
You introduced this term and use it as a basis for your argument, and for the sake of discussion I'd really like to know what you mean by it. If your response to the Falasha question is all there is, then the term really means - apart from a religion - absolutely nothing after all.
Also, "homeland" while your at it, pls.
>>I guess the usual suspects think that there are no such thing as a people or a homeland.<<
Of course we do - after all, everyone knows that everyone who wants is a people except the Palestinians and everyone has an "ancestral homeland" except they!
Noel
Life's too short.
We know you guys hate Israel. Hate 'em, hate 'em, hate 'em. Got it.
>>Life's too short.
We know you guys hate Israel. Hate 'em, hate 'em, hate 'em. Got it.<<
Ha, Ha, Phantom. you are beaten in your central argument and are running away in a huff.
You have constantly said that Jews of the world are united by being a people as well as through their religion. Then when asked to explain the "people" bit you could do nothing but state that they are united tthrough their religion!
By Yaweh that is really a poor performance on your part, and there was me looking forward to the argument lasting a little longer than usual.
Come in Danny Boy!
The RS / Noel Three Part Strategy
Blame the Jews
Misrepresent and Obfuscate
Declare yourself the Winner!
Phantom, one of the reasons/consequences of your reluctance to define (or perhaps even to understand) the terms you yourself introduce to the debate is that it not only allows you wriggle like mad as soon as you get into a sweat, which you very quickly do, but also means you can pretend that the other guy said something that he never did.
This thread is a case in point.
Because you want "people" to mean whatever you like it to mean at any given time, including nothing and everything, you think you can claim we believe "there are no such thing as a people or a homeland" and that the Kurds are not a people and that the people of Israel should have no homeland and - the inevitable - "blame the Jews", etc. etc.
All of which is of course bullshit, but serves the purpose of disguising your nonsense for yourself and those who know and think about these things as little as you evidently do.
Noel
You are monomaniacal on this.
The Jews are an ethnic and cultural group living in the land of their ancestors. All your fancy dancing does not change that, and religion needs not even need to enter the discussion.
The Russkies have their state, the Paddies and the Krauts have their state, and the Hebes have their state too. It's called justice and I know you don't like it, but tough titty, that's how it is and how it will remain.
>>The Jews are an ethnic and cultural group living in the land of their ancestors. All your fancy dancing does not change that, and religion needs not even need to enter the discussion.<<
Exactly - New York and Ethiopia are the respective homes of the ancestors of those in my pictures, and they all - each in his own peculiar way - seem to be quite happy living there (notwithstanding Lou Reed's tendency to maniac depression).
If you want to insist that the Jews of Argentina and China are also "living in the land of their ancestors", then who am I to contradict you :)
>>religion needs not even need to enter the discussion<<
Yet YOU had to bring it in as the sole explanation for how those diverse folk are part of the same "people".
You are going for a hat-trick of own-goals, Phantom....
>>The Jews are an ethnic and cultural group <<
... and there it is. Now you bring "culture" into it. Believe me, if you are unable to explain their cohesion on religious or racial grounds, then you will certainly never explain it by citing "cultural" unity.
You could, however, have a stab at it by outlining the cultural similarity between those African tribesmen and that coked-up street kid from Manhattan.
Maybe they both use bongos?
Baka ie!
You know Phantom,
Seems to me that Noel is picking you up on what he sees as inconsistencies in your argument.
What RS seems to be saying to us is,
We're arguing the case for the wrong KIND of Jews!!
They're phonies!
Wannabes!!
They just got in on the action because they wanted to SUFFER!!
Oy Gevalt !-THATS where we've been going wrong..!!
The Tenaach is full of illustrations of traitors, idolators, thieves, adulterers (we might call them Jews, but technically they were sometimes referred to as Children of Israel, sometimes the Twelve tribes of Israel., and a few others besides.
But the main thing is we see the same thing today. Human nature doesn't change.
Of course their were converts to Judaism, they were told (by the One who caused all the problems here) to be a light to the world aka the Goyim
(That's you, Phantom)
I find the arguments he espouses frankly insulting to all those generations of Jews who have suffered persecution and death, when it seems it was all totally unecessary.
Hitler, you wasted your time doing all that research on peoples backgrounds, looking for the slightest Jewish connection.
Boy! Did YOU screw up....!
Apology time Adolf.........
All they needed to say to their persecutors was,
Hey guys you've got the WRONG Jews!
We're not real Jews...
we're just assimilated ones
reluctant converts
Rice Jews
the damned or,
maybe we lost our way in Africa..!!
Please tick whichever box will get you guys to spare our lives,
and leave us alone...
This is getting s-oooo boring! Fancy a walk Phantom?
Maybe a salt beef sandwich and a little gefilte fish??
Nah, I don't like gefilte fish either,
REAL Jews don't eat it y'know.....
Phantom, you have shown yet again your ignorance surrounding a subject you flap your gums about. Your continued insistence of Jews being a single race/ethnic group with Israel as their ancestral homeland is laughable, not just because it is a complete fallacy, but moreso because of the numerous times you've been corrected on this, you still insist on doing the moth thing. Furthermore, the fact you seem to think there existed a single great unified Israelite kingdom is also at odds with the historical reality. Judaism had many converts, so your insistence on world Jewy having Israel as their ancestral home is a lie, plain and simple.
'Intermarriage has been present in every religion and every people's history.'
Phantom yet again your ignorance is laughable. Converts to judaism include not just marriage, but wholesale conversions, like the Khazar empire for instance. But we shouldn't expect Phantom to have a decent grasp of history.
Your ignorance surrounding zionism and its creation of a hsitory to fit the nation race idea propagated by Herzl et al (which developed alongside the rise of nationalism in Europe in the 19th century) is quite embarrassing for you. Perhaps you have heard this quote from Issac Asimov (but then again, this is Phantom im talking to, so probably not)
'If I could trace my origins to Judas Maccabaeus or King David, that would not add one inch to my stature. It may well be that many East European Jews are descended from Khazars, I may be one of them. Who knows? And who cares?'
Then Phantom, theres this...
Blame the Jews
Misrepresent and Obfuscate
Declare yourself the Winner
Please show where Noel or myself have blamed 'the jews'? Reading history and having a decent enough command of it to not look like a fool is not blaming anyone.
Please show where we have either misrepresented or obfuscated. Its not us who continually comes up with
'lifes too short' when backed into a corner of idiocy of their own making and thus unable to support their evidently flawed thesis.
Danny how is the history of Judaism 'insulting to all those generations of Jews who have suffered persecution and death, when it seems it was all totally unecessary.'
I think Danny, perhaps tomorrow you will take a look at that post of yours and cringe for the sheer childish foot stomping nonsense it so clearly is. If you don't like the fact that like christianity and Islam, Judaism also has a history of proselytizing, or the fact zionism has created the idea of a jewish race don't blame me or Noel. Blame the other messengers, like the Jewish academics who aren't motivated by any percieved 'tribal' allegiances and are more motivated by honesty and historical reality. But I'd guess you guys would call them self-haters.
Blame the Jews for wanting their own state
Misrepresent and Obfuscate the fact that there is a Jewish people and always has been
Declare yourself the Winner always
Life's too short, boys.
RS, did you get paid by the word on that one?
Who are the peoples who deserve a state? Yes, RS, the Iranians deserve one. Anyone else?
Who are the other peoples? Are the Irish a people? The Koreans? Where does one draw the line. I bet I know your answer
'Blame the Jews for wanting their own state'
Phantom, you seem to be ignoring history on purpose. Before zionism, world jewry had not the merest inclination to amass themselves into one state, nor did they view themselves as one race. Would you accept all the catholics in the world desiring their own state? Moreoever would you accept world catholicism desiring a state with the aim to displace a people already living there?
'Misrepresent and Obfuscate the fact that there is a Jewish people and always has been'
Phantom, no one has denied there have been jewish people. But you can't seem to grasp the fact that they are not a race, or an ethnicity. They are merely co-religionists. Plus there haven't always been members of any religion. Judaism is older than the other two, but its not the same age as the earth. Are you going to define these terms as Noel has requested? I would like to know what books you have read which you will no doubt be able to quote from to back up your thesis. (the bible doesn't count)
'Declare yourself the Winner always'
Phantom, your idiotic ramblings and inability to back-up your arguemnt with reasoned debate, references, quotes sources etc, and merely resort to nonsense like 'lifes too short' concedes the argument for you yourself.
Irish people
Iranian people
Korean people.
All these people come from a localised area, speak the same language etc. World jewry are made up of different peoples from many different parts of the globe, as history shows. Can you spot the difference, I'll give you a clue...religion.
I thought you would have been against a state being established along religious lines?
Phantom if i am incorrect, and all those Jewish academics are as well, Im sure you'll be able to show us where, instead of resorting to your usual childish soundbites.
>Can you spot the difference, I'll give you a clue...religion.<<
RS, Phantom can blarney on about "peoples" and "culture" as much as he likes, but when pressed to show what certain Jewish people had in common, he immediately buckled and realised that it was only their religion (at 02:09PM). The argument was over at that stage.
Although he did attempt a compromise with his "The Jews are an ethnic and cultural group living in the land of their ancestors.". Apart from the obvious nonsense about Jews forming a "cultural group", I think we can all agree that the Jews of the world are - whether in China, South Africa, Argentina, Israel, Russia or even our own benighted isle - all "living in the land of their ancestors".
Positively Solomon-like, that one.
'The argument was over at that stage.'
Indeed Noel, I don't know if its his ignorance, pride or dislike of me which prevents him from admitting such a simple thing as historical reality.
RS
Where does your hostility come from? No, the real reason. None of this " cuz you're so stupid in not agreeing with me " repartee .
You did learn how to cherry pick real good. Doesn't help you win arguments, or to see the other man's point of view, which actually would help you become effective, though Noel thinks you're quite the stuff, so there you are.
As you didn''t answer the question ( surprise ) I will narrow it down. Is there a Korean people? . I know what the real answer is, and it is either " yes " or it is " no ". Quit the bullshitting.
You have your personal opinion about the Jewish people, but the big majority of the Jewish people don't agree with you. They think that they do exist. And, as frequently pointed out, many of these people are not religious in the least. A lot of them despise religion.
You can't be a Muslim or a Catholic and not believe in God, but you sure as hell can be a Jew and not believe in him.
"No one has the right to limit the aspirations of a people." An important man said that. Look it up.
I would repeat that a Jew is born a Jew by virtue of being born to a Jewish mother.
That they don't believe in the religion or practice their faith does not mean that they are not Jewish.
A "baal tessuvah" is a Jew who returns to the faith.
Orthodox Jews do not consider a non practicing or unbelieving Jew a non Jew.
So,
We have assimilation
We have converts
We have Jewish spies,gangsters, politicians etc etc.
Not only does the world wide Jewish community consider them all Jews, so does the world of Goyim (other non Jewish nations and peoples). In fact in the western world they won't let them forget it! Hence my reference to Hitler.
That all Jews support, or at least feel some kind of connection with Israel, is beyond dispute.
That doesn't mean they don't first and foremost regard themselves as American, English or whatever.
(But as I said, it didn't make much difference in Nazi Germany).
Because that is where the Jewish people originated from.
It is exactly the same as Islam, bound together by their faith, belonging to the Nation of Islam. Even if they are not practicing Muslims.
Both are theocracies, their identity is bound up in their faith.
English, French, German people are not defined so. It is a geographical identity.
PS. How were you able to hear me stamping my feet?
God! You don't live nearby do you?
Danny, Danny
These lads have their minds made up. Don't trouble them with the facts.
There is no doubt that the local Arabs have legitimate complaints about Israel and its policies. Complaints that should be heard, grievances of long standing that should be addressed. A huge percentage of Israelis would agree with this.
But there has never been a more ineffective argument on their behalf than those, made by pale northwest Europeans, that the Jews are not a people at all, that they have no rights that anyone must respect.
Delegitimizing the opponent rarely wins an argument. It intensifies and prolongs it. Respect their humanity, and common ground may be found.
'Where does your hostility come from?'
So knowing the truth and not spouting lies is hostility?
You did learn how to cherry pick real good. Doesn't help you win arguments, or to see the other man's point of view, which actually would help you become effective, though Noel thinks you're quite the stuff, so there you are.
Come on Phantom, show where ive cherry picked. (Which is quite a funny term, given recent jewish academics highlighting that that is precisely what the zionist narrative has done with the history of judaism).
Phantom, everyone can have a point of view, but history is a fact. You seem to think your point of view can be presented and sit alonside historical reality, it can't sorry to burst your bubble.
'Is there a Korean people?'
Is a there a religion named Korean?
'You have your personal opinion about the Jewish people,'
Phantom, my opinion was formed by jewish academics and their resounding critique of the fallacies of the zionist narrative. Yet with all the evidence out there which contradicts the zionist narrative, you still seem fit to spout long debunked lies.
'They think that they do exist.'
Sorry Phantom, but that little crude atempt to poortray me as believeing ther are no jewish people can be seen for what it is. There are jewish people, but as any competent student of history can show, they are not one disticnt race or ethnicity. Perhaps Phantom instead of spouting the 'secualr jews' exist so they must be a race (which is again evidence of you merely clinging on to the zionist narrative), you could try and refute all those jewish academics who have proven otherwise. Merely spouting soundbites doesn't cut it, though you seem o think it does. I asked before, so i'll ask again, which books have formed your 'opinion'? What scholars?
"No one has the right to limit the aspirations of a people." An important man said that. Look it up.
I agree, especially if others seek to create a narrative which seeks to exclude oppress and deny the rights of others, which is precisely what zionism has done.
Danny, it must be hard for you, i realise that being brought up to believe a cobbled together narrative formed in the nineteenth century which is slowly crumbling must be difficult.
'That all Jews support, or at least feel some kind of connection with Israel, is beyond dispute.'
Im sure you will be able to provide evidence for this assertion?
We have converts
Indeed judaism does, which is the skeleton that zionism would like kept in its ideological cupboard.
Because that is where the Jewish people originated from.
More lies. Have you never heard of the Khazars, or the falasha? Why on earth do you keep peddling long debunked lies?
It is exactly the same as Islam, bound together by their faith, belonging to the Nation of Islam. Even if they are not practicing Muslims.
So you are saying it should be ok for muslims to keep indigenous people out and form states based on religion?
Don't trouble them with the facts.
What facts? please great Phantom, tell me what facts bother Noel and I. It is patently obvious who has the greater command of facts and aint the middle aged man in a purple suit. Please oh great Phantom, give me a list of the books where you got these facts.
'that they have no rights that anyone must respect.
Phantom why do you always feel the need to put sentences into peoples mouths that they did not say. Who said Jews should have no rights? Demonstrating the historical reality that jews are not a disticnt race or ethnicity is not denying anyones rights. Futhermore believeing you have a right to a land based (and that the indigenous population do not, and many Jews do not subscribe to zionism) on long debunked lies and nonsense which history itself contradicts is not denying anyones human rights.
I'll end Phantom, with a final request for the literature in which these 'facts' you hold are beyond dispute.
Titles and authors.
RS
You probably don't even convince yourself with this paid by the word voluminous twaddle.
If you don't even know that there is such a thing as the Jewish people, then there's no point in having a discussion on this subject, and probably on any other.
Sorry Phantom, but i don't merely rely on the bible for my version of history.
I'll ask again, and considering you're so sure of your thesis, you should have no problem recommending me a few. Which books and what scholarship do you rely on?
Titles and authors?
Phantom its patently obvious to anyone who reads this thread, you have very little understanding of the subject you flap your gums about. I would you suggest you read a little more, such as Sands book, wher he expertedly through the use of sources unpicks and demonstrates the fallacies in the zionist narrative of the history of judaism. People he critiques include the likes of Dubnow and Graetz, and he also examines the history of conversion and proselyizing in judaism and the Torah. other works you might like to examine would be Finkelsteins 'The Bible Unearthed', what with your fixation with jewish artefacts to legitimize zionism.
RS
Did you pick your feet in Poughkeepsie?
Phantom, as others can see from this thread. You really do have a paucity of knowledge surrounding many issues and think that lines like 'lifes too short' or quoting Popeye Doyle will suffice and stop you looking like a child who when he finds out his ideas are a nonsense throws the toys out of the pram.
You've made a bit of a wally out of yourself on this thread Phantom.
But hey, thanks for the laugh.