Hold on David.....I thought everything was peaceful, now that there is parity of representation in government.

I have to admit that I don't really understand the personal animus between Catholics and Protestants that still leads to violence in your part of the world. I don't "get" religious violence. It seems so third world, ignorant and pointless. Both sides are Christian, just agree to disagree politely on doctrinal differences and get on with life.

Daphne

It is nothing to do with religious doctrinal differences. It is national identity (Catholics overwhelmingly Irish nationalist in identity and Protestants virtually exclusively British unionist ) which fuels the sectarian attacks. None of those who carry out such bigoted attacks can call themselves Christian.

Daphne - The doctrinal differences aren't the issue, the political divide utilized the religious differences to further the divide.

Everything isn't peaceful, but it is more so than it was, even with those events David cites. The day of those who used violence in support of that divide is in fact on the wane.

Okay. So what's the polling on leaving the UK for Ireland?

Daphne

Nil point. I'm afraid there will be no polling this year. Ireland have failed to make the Eurovision final :(

huh?

Against it Daphne and always will be. Northern Ireland is British and is staying that way. Mind you, some pond life in Tyrone are more than welcome to leave it.

Daphne

I'm winding you up. Eurovision is our annual continentalwide song contest which is supposed to be about music and fairness and harmony and all that, but ends up with all the European countries voting for their friends and neighbours and against their enemies. Ireland was going to be represented by a singing chicken (I think) but got knocked out in the semi finals. The contest takes place this Saturday and the UK and Ireland despite their historic enmity usually vote well for each other. Now that can;t happen boo hoo!

I heard that Azerbaijan was in it. How in Gods name can that be seen as part of Europe?

Maybe you can add Kyrgystan next year. Hell of a music scene there.

I know how you feel David, I'm sympathetic. If the numbers, and sentiment, (aren't the catholics in the majority? Are most catholics in favor in uniting with Ireland?)) are against your position, how is it possible to keep NI British? Especially if the British on their island don't care?

Daphne

Catholics are not in the majority in Northern Ireland. The majority are Protestants and they want to remain in the UK. Catholic sentiment is generally to identify with the Republic of Ireland but they don't hold that view as widely or as strongly as protestants do their Britishness. The reason for the traditional refusal by Repblicans (the more hardline branch of Irish nationalism) to accept the wishes of the majority in Northern Ireland is the feeling that the border which created the entitiy knows as Northern Ireland created an artificial geographical area from whence this majority was created. Irish nationalists consider themsleves to be part of the natural Irish majority on the Island and feel 'robbed' of their place in the Irish nation.

Phantom

The whole contest should really be presented by Borat !

Colm, Then they should move and stop creating problems.

Daphne

I can imagine some rather stern reactions to that suggestion of yours by some of ATWs regulars.

Tough. We don't all get our way in life and sometimes it's better to find greener pastures rather than continuing to pointlessly shit in our own backyards.

Daphne's universal answer to territorial disputes and sectarian conflict .. "If you don't like it here piss off" :)

Daphne, Tyrone has and always had a Nationalist majority, i.e. a majority want independence from Britain. This was of course also known back in 1921 when Ireland was divided. The problem was that Unionists were given the carving knife and allowed decide what was to be in Northern Ireland and what not. They decided to take places like Tyrone into the new province despite the wishes of the majority of its citizens, as the addition of these Catholics would not upset the Protestant majority in Northern Ireland as a whole.

If Ireland had been divided by Britain alone, Tyrone and other large parts of Ulster would have gone with independent Ireland; the Catholic minority in the resulting smaller NI would then not nearly be big enough to have any political effect, or indeed pose a threat to the stability of NI. They would in time have been assimilated, and the Troubles would never have happened.

However, it was not to be: the province was formed on the basis of greed, unfairness and sectarianism right from the start.

Noel

The post may be about Tyrone the county , but I believe Daphne was referring to Northern Ireland as a whole in her queries here.

Colm, and who does the "Then they should move and stop creating problems." refer to?

Catholics moving to RoI?
Protestants moving back to Britain?
Hispanics moving out of the US?
Whites who object to immigration moving out of Texas?

All of the above Noel.

If people are feeling so fiercely about governance that they resort to violence, they ought to find a place that more suits their temperament. Blowing things up isn't a good solution for grievances.

I appreciate your background on this particular area, but I really don't get the whole ongoing overall fight here. I understand David's antipathy for terrorists and the people who legitimized their tactics by folding them into the government, but give me a break - what is the point of continuing to attack your fellow neighbors nowadays?

If the border is that close in Tyrone, why not skip over and settle there if that's your preference? Seems more rational than bombing people.

If the border is that close in Tyrone, why not skip over and settle there if that's your preference? Seems more rational than bombing people.

Thats not a rational statement at all. The majority of people in NI had no truck with the violence. Why should they be forced to sell up their land, land they may have farmed on for generations, and leave their families and move on elsewhere.

The solution has always been about accommodating the Catholic minority within NI. Fair treatment and fair representation. If at some time in the future a substantial majority want to change the status of NI, then let them decide to do it. None of the governments are pushing it either way at the moment.

Ive just started reading Antonia Frasers biography of Cromwell. A fascinating read. But even back then you can see the origins of the problems that are still being sorted today. Religious intolerance. One group telling another that they should not be allowed to practise their faith, and trying to introduce legislation to prevent them from doing so.

"If the border is that close in Tyrone, why not skip over and settle there if that's your preference?"

Seriously?

Let me paint an alternative picture. A certain area of England has a large number of muslims. The muslims in that area successfully obtain an independent muslim state for a region of England by artificially drawing a border to make them a majority in that region. There is tension/violence between the muslim minority and the native English.

So you are suggesting that the English minority should "skip over the border" to the non-muslim part of England rather than stay in their own part of England?