You do not defeat terrorism by rewarding terrorists, regardless of how many bleeding heart liberals argue otherwise. Want to know where that flawed approach leads to? Read UNIONISM DECAYED 1997-2007 - It's my first book and it explains what happens when you seeek to appease terrorists and call it peace. It's available right now for ATW readers so make sure you get your copy by emailing the editor! This is the book that dissents from the herd mentality that doing wrong can lead to being right. It doesn't and this book spells out WHY.
"I do remember... the corridors of Broadcasting House were strewn with empty champagne bottles. I'll always remember that", Jane Garvey, BBC Five Live, May 10th, 2007, recalling May 2nd, 1997.
Friday, November 27, 2009 at 10:11PM Sad to report that there appears to be more street theatre of the pyrrhic kind in Belfast this evening, on the Falls Road. This follows on from that which happened the other evening in the city centre. Is this recreational vandalism? And what about the parents - some of the kids seemed very young the other evening - early teens.
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Reader Comments (71)
What about the camera is what I'm thinking. There's a strange glowing squiggle at the top of the snap.
Vandals.
Amended!
Groundbreaking stuff, Davey. Keep it up lad.
Fox News: watch your back.
Why would I need to watch my back? Please clarify...
Do tell us, Davey: when did you change your name to Fox News? Should we now refer to you as Mr. Fox News Esq?
Are you Fox News? Are you Rupert Murdoch in disguise? No? Then ignore the end of my previous comments, like a good boy, for they were addressed to the owners of Fox News and not the northern Irish blogosphere's favourite raging bigot.
Oh, I see. Fox News is surely reading your wise words.
As for your accusation I am a bigot, well done. You have mastered a new word.
the northern Irish blogosphere's favourite raging bigot.
I have never read a word by David that would come anywhere close to justifying that comment.
that's some good citizen journalism there davey. a blurry dark picture and an ambiguous comment.
keep up the good work.
So what's going on? There'sa firetruck on the Falls?...
Ok, I see the fire engine. What else am I supposed to be seeing?
And what about the parents
In particular, what about the fathers?
Bet you a Northern Ireland £5 note that none of these boys have a strong and involved father in their lives.
Falls Road, enough said.
Get a girlfriend Mr Vance or in these more enlightened times a boyfriend if you prefer.
Phantom
Some of them might have strong and involved fathers who are actually encouraging this 'rebelliousness'.
David, I'm not trying to be a smartarse, but I don't know what I'm supposed to be looking for in the photo. There's a fire engine, anything else ?
Forgive my lack of psychic ability, but could someone clarify exactly what the story is here?
Live and dangerous? Surely a sign wishing a Happy Christmas in Irish doesn't warrant this kind of headline?
Getting a fair bit of stick over on Slugger about this. Accusations of hyperbole, bitterness, irrelevance and general jumping the gunnery.
If it had been of the shankill would that have removed the accusations Paul? Isn't there a juxtaposition here of two things, peace on earth vs anti social behaviour? I agree there is a lack of reporting, but is it the source that is the problem, ie , this is David Vance saying this about the Falls, therefore there is no anti social problem, only bitterness?
No anti social problems in West Belfast then?
Wow you have little to be at fella.
Is there something in the picture that Im missing. I just see a fire engine, a happy Christmas sign, two firemen and someone running across the road ?
Im confused on this one. Is the sign on fire ? and is that why the fire engine is there ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnT7pT6zCcA
?
Colm
It depends on your definition
My definition of a strong and informed father would be one who loves the son, looks out for his best interest, and teaches him how to act.
Rioting in the street, esp in the year 2009,. is not the proper way to act there.. You can be very committed to any of the political causes over there and still oppose such behavior.
I'll say it again - though it may be unprovable - the boys described here do not have strong and informed fathers. Their fathers are missing or have spent more time getting soused on booze than they have on showing their boys what it means to be a man.
First of all G, if it had been on The Shankill it wouldn’t have negated accusations of any kind, however, the original post was regarding “recreational rioting” and not some supposed act of antisocial behavior.
The fact of the matter was that David got it wrong, admitted his mistake and amended the blog, but this doesn’t detract from the fact that the post was intended to lump the populace of a particular section of the city along with the nefarious actions of a handful of feral youths. Hence the ‘West Belfast’ screaming headline. This accusation is then exacerbated by the insinuation that this is a continuation of the problems in Belfast City Centre during the week, implying that this act of anti social behavior is a continuation of the acts of vandalism in BCC and it’s implicit accusation that it’s reflective of the general populace of that part of the city.
People can draw their own conclusions as the why the blog headline didn’t simply demonstrate that this happened in Belfast as opposed to W. Belfast I come to the conclusion that it’s because of the geo – political position of that part of the city.
Finally G, as someone from that part of the city I would never suggest that anti social behavior doesn’t exist there – as indeed it does in all parts of the city and further afield. Indeed, I would agree, for example, that most car crime emanates from that part of the city. But the question I raise is that there was a nineteen year old raped, [IMO a much more heinous crime than some wastrels setting bins alight], last night in East Belfast.
Where is the sensationalist blog headline to highlight that crime in that part of the city?
Colm, I absolutely agree with Phantom. Parental responsibility is obviously a factor here but to speculate that “Some of them might have strong and involved fathers who are actually encouraging this 'rebelliousness” is lazy. As a parent of four teenage children and someone with very strong political views I could never encourage my offspring to participate in such destructively nihilistic actions. In my experience it would be irresponsible parents devoid of political conviction and apathetic to community cohesiveness who would encourage such acts.
There comes a time in many families when an overburdened mother simply cannot control a hulking teenage son. When there is a weak or absent father, these kids are completely at risk for falling into gangs of whatever type.
This is true in Belfast, it is true in Los Angeles, and it is true in places all over the world.
I'm not necessarily even blaming some of the rioters here.
I speculate that half of what these kids are protesting is that they never had a real father - that is the source of some of this unfocused rage. It's not a new story, and its unbelievably sad.
My but how my intentions are misrepresented!
Right, i will put this straight here and then deal with the kids on Slugger.
Earlier this week I was IN central Belfast and observed loutishness which led to law-breaking. I noted those concerned were young people. I made NO comment on "which side" they came from since that is irrelevant.
Fast forward a few days and I am sent some images of further loutishness - this time in west Belfast. I could not care less if it was north, south or east Belfast - it is the fact that some young people show little respect for other people's property let alone themselves. In this regard, Phantom actually deals with the substance of what I was raising.
Of course SOME people - including the Slugger kids - seem to have decided I was having a go at west Belfast. How could I, when the images and information came from someone who lives there?
Furthermore, I did change the initial terminology since I am 100% happy to accept it was not rioting. But is was anti-social and required the Fire Brigade to attend.
I was interested in trying to understand how and why we have this loutishness on our streets - across NI and beyond. But some wish to pigeon-hole me as a bigot. I honestly feel that all they demonstrate is their own profound immaturity in doing so.
Clear?
Thank you for the clarification David. The good people of West Belfast can now rest soundly knowing that they weren't signalled out to imply that this behaviour is confined to that particular part of the city.
It wasn't my intention to portray you as a bigot, if that was how it came across I apologise. I merely wanted to demonstrate that this behavior is not restricted to that part of the city.
Now, on the issue of disrespect of people and property: Rape in East Belfast, car jacking in West Belfast and serious assault in Derry last night. How are these behaviors combatted?
It wasn't my intention to portray you as a bigot
Maybe it wasn't yours Paul, but I saw some pretty nasty comments on that thread that were simply man playing. (At least four were removed.) One comment said 'someone introduce vance to sex', and another about mind melding, I couldn't figure it out, but it was certainly sick. The fact is, anyone should be able to comment on any sort of behaviour be it rape, or burning stuff without the person being told they are a bigot.
I think your poking of DV on this issue is wrong. Why can't he comment on West Belfast if he choses, or Dublin gangs, or anything else without the whataboutery, its because whataboutery is so much a part of us, anything someone from the other camp says has to be an attack, not a comment but an attack. Ergo in comes the defence.
Its time to grow up guys.
Well G I'm only responsible for my comments on this and no one else's so I can't speak for them.
Regarding my highlighting of this post, I think that my concerns were adequately outlined in my 5.38.
I don't think so Paul. What you outlined was the basis of your own concerns, its the reason for your concern that ought to bother not only you but all of us, for we all do it. Spring to defence - look at who is saying it rather than the issue on hand.
The fact is this city has huge problems. I'd like to spring to defence and say, well so have outlying towns, arent old age pensioners just as vulnerable in outlying towns and since I live in Belfast and DV doesn't does that give him no rights and me every right to criticise?
I read a blog post about a NY cab, where a cab driver had someone undo his zipper and put his private parts in his cab window simply due to a traffic jam. A different form of road rage? Since its on the internet, can not everyone comment on it, or only N. Yorkers?
Your defence of wb, 'well Icome from that part of the city' - is supposed to make you an authority on crime in the city? I don't mean that to read rude, but no one has a monopoly on that, everybody has a say, if not why go on the internet.
I read a post by eamonn mallie when he went to visit a death house of a police officer. He introduced himself as Eamonn and got called seamus, and when he corrected the guy the reply was, 'same difference'. those attitudes need challenging. We ALL need to challenge them, I know I'm the biggest offender of them at times, but I read nothing in DV's original post to suggest that this was a dig at WB, or republicans or anybody in that part of the city. I think we can all take it as a given, that this occours on all sides and in all areas. Even in S Belfast, we had two polish brothers dead, chinese woman murdered not so long back, and attacks on romanians, are there only certain people who can comment on these or can we all comment?
I don't mind ATW folks challenging me - that's fine because I do get things wrong! But I trust all fair-minded people will agree with G that I had NO intention whatsoever of having a go at the people of West Belfast in my post. In fact, and I realise that some will mock me for even saying this, I CARE about decent law abiding people everywhere, inc all parts of Belfast and think they have a right not to put up with louts causing damage and creating anxiety My motive was that simple.
There are some at Slugger who just hate me and I can do nothing about that. That is their problem, not mine. Based on the quality of some of their comments, I can only assume that when they grow up they will grow out of their silly behavior!!!
My problem with this is that
a) I have no idea what is going on in that picture. Damn jaywalkers.
b) While he has, convieniently since the storm brewed put up a thread about East Belfast, David almost relishes at a chance to say "Oh look at what there doing over there!". He disagrees with anti social behaviour. Fair enough. But he would seem to complain about it in West Belfast quicker than in East Belfast.
Let's just say, and I could be doing the man a diservice, I have always got the opinion that David blogs on things that are political convienient for him.
David almost relishes at a chance to say "Oh look at what there doing over there!"
Do you mean slugger?
Well lets look at what they did, they jumped on the person making the comment rather than question the issue, they played the man not ball against site rules and no cards handed out, and basically played open season with an individual over something on his own blog. Things were read into it that weren't there, and allowed to run rampant without a mod.
Or WB?
He disagrees with anti social behaviour. Fair enough. But he would seem to complain about it in West Belfast quicker than in East Belfast.
In fairness I've had that argument with him myself, but it IS impossible to blog on everything considering the range of issues covered.
I did mean West Belfast. He will complain about behaviour in West Belfast before East, complain about the IRA before the UVF, etc etc
G,
I obviously spoke about my own concerns. Safety, like charity, begins at home and as a native from that part of the city my immediate concerns are for my family who live there and any actions which may affect them.
This city, as every area of populace on this planet, have their own problems of crime. Some are worse than others dependant on X amount of factors such as population, economics, social problems, corruption etc.
On WB or NY or any other part of the world of course we can all have an opinion. I don't pretend to be an authourity on anything other than my professional life, and your suggestion that I try to set myself up as:
"an authority on crime in the city"
Is misrepresentation, I only suggest that I'm qualified to speak about that part of the city as I'm from there, like Phantom & Mahons can speak about NY, Daphne & Charles can speak about Texas, Patty about Cali, Troll & Monica about Philli etc. My analysis is by no means definitive and I don't wish to suggest that I have a monopoly on anything.
I comment on the things that I feel I know best and my comments are there to be debated or disproven by anyone.
My post was essentially on the fact that I thought the people of West Belfast were being missrepresented and I don't see what relevance your reference to Eamonn Mallie has to the issue.
"I don't mind ATW folks challenging me - that's fine because I do get things wrong! But I trust all fair-minded people will agree with G that I had NO intention whatsoever of having a go at the people of West Belfast"
As a fair minded person from WB David my 5.38 should demonstrate this.
Contrast this with James H's 7.32
Paul
I have no issues with you whatsoever. We don't agree on some things - that's life!
Seamus
I really think you don't get me at all but stick around, after time, you will. FYI - I blog on what catches my attention! I blog from my political perspective! I blog on things I think will be interesting for others.
My post was essentially on the fact that I thought the people of West Belfast were being missrepresented and I don't see what relevance your reference to Eamonn Mallie has to the issue.
OK paul let me clarify. I raised what eamonn said because it typifies attitudes, and your concerns may be family based but how does that make DV's questions threatening to your family? He's only saying what many in SF are saying that we need to clean up our areas. I've seen SF organised clean up's of different areas - especially west belfast.
When Nolan highlighted the old woman robbed and told people she lived on the shankill was that slighting west belfast residents. The shankill road is the forgotten west belfast. It is not totally a nationalist area and all of us ignore that fact, these are happening in those parts of west belfast too. That picture is obviously a fire in the background beside the probabation offices on the Falls road.
I comment on the things that I feel I know best and my comments are there to be debated or disproven by anyone.
I'm not trying to disprove, merely to challenge your assumptions. I think we all need to do that hence the reference to eamonn mallies post.
My post was essentially on the fact that I thought the people of West Belfast were being missrepresented
Are they? You yourself admit there is anti social crime in wb like anywhere else, or is it the person highlighting the issue the real problem.
G,
It doesn't make David's comments threatening to my family in the least. You suggested that as I was from that part of the city I sought to set myself up as some sort of authourity on the issue. My comments only sought to clarify that this wasn't the case. W.Belfast cetainly has it's share of social problems, [as I state above], and I have personally participated in numerous projects in attempting to alleviate them.
I don't believe that, [part], of the Shankill is the forgotten part of W.B, [if you're standing at Peter's Hill looking up the Shankill only the left hand part of the Rd is in the W.B. constituency], empirical evidence from friends in SF suggests that council matters from both The Shankill and Suffolk flow to Sevastapol St and Connolly House and are dealt with accordingly, however this is third part information.
"I'm not trying to disprove, merely to challenge your assumptions"
Good! I welcome my opinions being challenged. That is what healthy debate and, IMO, the life blood of a good blog is all about.
"Or is it the person highlighting the issue the real problem"
G, I've been commenting on ATW more years than I care to remember and while David and I robustly debate and argue I don't think that we've ever had a cross word.
Good! I welcome my opinions being challenged. That is what healthy debate and, IMO, the life blood of a good blog is all about.
Thats excellent Paul, as I desire no cross words either during healthy debate.
The good people of West Belfast can now rest soundly knowing that they weren't signalled out to imply that this behaviour is confined to that particular part of the city.
Firstly re west belfast. You are one of three people who blog here from wb, and no other stands up as spokesperson as you do, nor reference where they live. Its my experience that when people reference where they live it is meant to stop the debate dead. That may not be what you are doing, but theres always something in there that says, this is where I live, I am in the know, I know what is going on, therefore I know more than you guys, therefore my comments hold more weight than anyone elses because its where I'm from. I find that you always reference where you are from, and that underlying it is this mindset. Hopefully I am wrong.
You suggested that as I was from that part of the city
No Paul, you did a few times, but you were the first.
Finally G, as someone from that part of the city
also
I only suggest that I'm qualified to speak about that part of the city as I'm from there,
You are one of 3 of us who blog regularly here, with goodness knows how many readers from there.
But the question I raise is that there was a nineteen year old raped, [IMO a much more heinous crime than some wastrels setting bins alight], last night in East Belfast
Didn't that happen at five thirty this morning, the post went up at around ten past ten last night, I mean give the man a break ;-)
Anyway, its saturday night, I'm off out. Good chatting to you.
Enjoy your night out G, hope to follow this tomorrow.
There's a few points I want to raise regarding what you have said however in your absence we'll leave them to our continuation tomorrow but, if you're still about there's one question that I'd like to ask:
"You are one of three people who blog here from wb, and no other stands up as spokesperson as you do, nor reference where they live"
If they don't reference where they live how do you know they're from W.B.?
Who are the other two from West Belfast? ( Seamus and ? )
Who else is from Belfast?
If they don't reference where they live how do you know they're from W.B.?
Paul, you are one, I am two, and seamus is three....;-)
I'll be around until about nine, if you want to throw it out there. But I won't be getting bogged down in anything tonight. ;-)
For gawd sake keep your questions simple, its saturday night !!;-)
ps reference could be the wrong word. I mean refer to it on a regular basis rather than have mentioned it in passing on one or two posts.
I hope to be in Belfast again one of these days. Perhaps we can meet up and talk sedition!
Don't forget little old me sitting up here in north Belfast.
When are you coming phantom?
I have no immediate plans, but its not impossible that I could piggyback an Ireland leg to a London business gig sometime in the first quarter of 2010.
RS, you're included in my tentative invite.
Lets see what happens.
I'd be happy to accept, thankyou.
I'll bring all my powers of persuasion :)
Actually in prior meetups with mahons, David, and the esteemed Julius Geezer, politics has been pretty much the last thing to be discussed.
in that case perhaps you could try and convince me of the benefits of baseball, because its the only american sport where im failing to see the attraction.